Threatened by Police

[sig-sweet]

If you don't mind I’d like to address two issues here. As far as being a LEO smash post, it might be. I see where he joined INGO only yesterday. This post may have been the reason he signed up on here, hoping to find fellow like minded gun enthusiast, just as we all have. This would be his first opportunity to post it in any kind of public form to all to see. Just my slant on it, I could be wrong, I have been before……just ask my wife and kids…….

Secondly, I would like to know how the incident evolved. Did the cashier call in, did some customer see him and call, or did the Deputies just happen to be there. In any event, as I said before, there is a record of this event leading up to; actions taken during and the actions resulting in the closure of the situation/call. It’s all public record. It may not be free and it may take time to acquire, but it is attainable.

Being in LE I can understand in today’s society why SOME people (unarmed sheeple for example) may be alarmed if they see anyone with a weapon in public. I mean, clowns scare some people. Nancy Pelosi scares the hell out of me……and we’ve never met. I’ve been on here before with this, but here I go again. I just can’t help it. As an LEO, while on duty, if I see a person with a gun, walking down the street, acting normal (using common sense to define normal) minding their own business, not matching the description of any active call……peace be with you brother/sister. If I am in a building that serves the public, surrounded by the masses and see the same thing…..have a great day. But if I am called to or approached by a/an individual(s) then my job to protect the public is exactly what I’ll do; including the individual carrying. Given the situation depends on weather I ask for the weapon or not. Attitude goes a long way….theirs……. and mine. I will check his LTCH, I feel this is the least I should do. I don’t agree with licensing for handguns, but it is the law of society we live in…….now anyway…..so I have to enforce it. If they are compliant and 99.99.9999999% of people that carry open in public are, then we may have a polite discussion about people and public attitudes on the second amendment and how do you like it, do you have more, here’s what I have, looks like you’ve not shot your eye out, yadda, yadda, yadda. If their legal, I won’t make anyone hide their gun, they don’t have to, it’s the law. I then will make a public statement, like shaking hands or I’ll pat their back as I leave. I think that is important. Hopefully if the public see the officer is at ease with it all, then they know its safe. I know, it may be a stretch, but it’s worth a try. Then they can go back to grazing for what ever they were grazing for in the first place.
As an LEO I am suppose to uphold the laws of society, and to make sure the rights of individuals are protected, sometimes it very hard to explain the right to carry to a person that doesn’t. But as I tell them, because you don’t understand or like it, doesn’t diminish the rights of the person carrying.

Any Officer, that will not ID (name or badge #) himself upon request from anyone for any reason, should find another profession. If they feel they are above that, or are just so unsure they are correct and are trying to protect themselves looking stupid, they do not belong in the job. Just as anyone on their job can be; an Officer can be mistaken at any given time. We can not memorize, every IC code there is. BUT, the actions we take are so consequential to a person rights, they had best make sure they are correct before they act. To wrongly restrict someone’s rights, and then say, oh man, I screwed up……is incomprehensible in my mind.

Yes it is a tough job. Doing the right thing in life isn’t always easy, but it’s worth it.

While on duty, I treat everyone like they’re my family member………..that I may have kill at any moment……… (just a tad of levity here!)

 

[E5RANGER375]

no i wouldnt get into a shootout with police in the present society. im not a criminal. but i will resist peacefully even if that means going to jail. because i stood for what i believed in and thats the one thing they cant EVER take away.

also, if i made it sound like i was attacking the OP, im sorry, that wasnt my intention. i feel bad for him because i see a citizens that was scared intentionaly into submission, and threatened, and had his rights violated. the guy probly wondered if he was ever gonna see his wife again. sorry but i dont trust the police. i know there are good ones but their are also a lot of bad ones, i dont take chances on what personality type im gonna get, jekle or hyde. i stay away from them unless i absolutely have to communicate. if i see someone breaking the law that could cause harm to someone else then yes i will call 911, but i wont ever give my name.

 

[dross]

I really do not see why it's a big deal to let them take control of your weapon, until they run their check and everything is cool. Not trying to start a war, just curious. Lets say you where a police officer. Your at the grocery store. You see a man with a visible gun. You approach, and till him to stop. You ask do you have a permit for that. Joe says yes. You ask in a non aggressive manner, for his permit and weapon. Which I know in this case, they said hands up so a little more escalated. The person says you can have my permit, but not my gun. Especially if you have some gungho super trooper, there out there. I'm thinking my safety first as the officer. Especially if you are alone, and have to run the check. Because now your focus is taken off the individual. Who may be legit, but may not be either. I guess with my experience, I see it from the eyes of an officer. We always had a saying: Us, ours, them, theirs. As an officer, it always makes things a little less stresfull when you know there is one less threat. Even though people are not always truthful, and may have another gun hidden that they are not telling you about!

And if police were investigating a crime in your town, why not just let them search your house without a warrant? What's the big deal? Safety first. I mean if you have nothing to hide, what difference does it make?

 

[Hornett]

That's almost like the knock at the door in the middle of the night and two officers are standing there.

How is he supposed to really know they are cops?
Do you allow anyone in a uniform to handcuff you just because they say "Stop right there!"

I am not trying to justify resistance.
Maybe I am trying to thread jack

How do you know for sure they are police?

 

[U.S. Patriot]

I think that you are correct in that the police would be the likely body used to disarm us. The question is though, short of that happening are you really going to get in a shootout in the grocery store parking lot?

I mean, all of the evidence in the OP points to a pair of cops that need a refresher course on the law, not a general movement to seize and confiscate all weapons. I think it is wrong to bash the OP on these grounds.

Think about it, what are his choices?
-give up his gun, let them run their checks and then complain/file suit later
-refuse to give up his gun, argue nonviolently and hope he can convince them they are wrong and that he doesn't get arrested then complain/file suit later
-refuse to give up his gun, resist violently, hope he doesn't get killed, face a bunch of worse charges if he makes it through the encounter alive or, if he wins the grocery store parking lot shootout he becomes a wanted criminal for the rest of his life

I don't criticize the OP for complying. None of us knows how they would really react in that situation and he was probably weighing the cost of losing his liberty for a view minutes that night vs. the costs of resisting.

I am in no way condoning what the police did, I just think it is wrong to bash someone for consenting to give up their gun. I think it is a valid choice to "comply now, sue later" and a choice that needs to take into account current events.

Thanks you cleared up in more detail, on how I was trying to explain certain points of my view. Two officers, yes I see no need for hands up, and cuffs. Let him keep his gun holstered. You have one contact officer, and cover officer. In case the individual tries a violent action. One officer trying to keep an eye on the individual, while trying to radio in a check. The chance of something happening is slim, but in todays world you can never be to careful. Even though I think no officer should patrol alone, or be anywhere on duty without a partner. It's not always about giving in, or bowing down. It's about keeping situations to the best of your ability from escalating. If I wanted to give up my rights, I would go to the police station and surrender my guns. To me it's best to pick, and choose your fights. Not let others choose for you. I also agree that some cops can be real a holes, and power hungry.

 

[E5RANGER375]

And if police were investigating a crime in your town, why not just let them search your house without a warrant? What's the big deal? Safety first. I mean if you have nothing to hide, what difference does it make?

i hope you were being sarcastic, but i dont see purple or a smiley face
well judges wont issue a blanket warrent for a whole town. it would be illegal. they have to have good evidence to issue a warrent.

i will never let someone search crap without a warrant, not even my pockets. i have nothing to hide, but that doesnt mean i will hand my rights away. i guess rights dont mean crap to some people. you should all ban together and live on an island, oh wait they already do, its called Cuba

 

[U.S. Patriot]

And if police were investigating a crime in your town, why not just let them search your house without a warrant? What's the big deal? Safety first. I mean if you have nothing to hide, what difference does it make?

What does that have to do, with allowing an officer to hold you gun just to run a check? If an officer/officers knocked on my door. Saying their is a dangerous subject loose, and other officers or witnesses saw him/her head in this direction. Do you mind if we do a quick check? I do not mind, I have nothing to hide. Am I giving up my rights no. To me I'm just helping. What if it was a real situation. I would want the person found. Maybe he snuck in someones unlocked door, or window. They are just doing their job. Yes you can refuse, that's your choice. However your choice, may not be the choice of another. Not to be a jerk, but you are only seeing one side. That of being a civilian. I have seen things from both sides. To me, it helps to see things from a different point of view.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

i hope you were being sarcastic, but i dont see purple or a smiley face
well judges wont issue a blanket warrent for a whole town. it would be illegal. they have to have good evidence to issue a warrent.

i will never let someone search crap without a warrant, not even my pockets. i have nothing to hide, but that doesnt mean i will hand my rights away. i guess rights dont mean crap to some people. you should all ban together and live on an island, oh wait they already do, its called Cuba

Ok it's situational. If an officer/officers just walk up, no cause and says let me search you. Then I would say no. However if the officer/officers are being polite, and have a reasonable request. I have no problem with complying. There is a big difference between complying to reasonable request, and giving up your rights. In the whole time as a LEO. When asking if anyone had a weapon, before we did our boardings. We never had one single issue. Allot to do with that we acted in a polite, and profesional manner. Attitude plays a big part in how people react!

 

[E5RANGER375]

Ok it's situational. If an officer/officers just walk up, no cause and says let me search you. Then I would say no. However if the officer/officers are being polite, and have a reasonable request. I have no problem with complying. There is a big difference between complying to reasonable request, and giving up your rights. In the whole time as a LEO. When asking if anyone had a weapon, before we did our boardings. We never had one single issue. Allot to do with that we acted in a polite, and profesional manner. Attitude plays a big part in how people react!

so if they ask nicely you will give up your rights? if im gonna allow a cop to even look up my name, i wanna know what his probable cause is.

 

[Eddie]

i hope you were being sarcastic, but i dont see purple or a smiley face
well judges wont issue a blanket warrent for a whole town. it would be illegal. they have to have good evidence to issue a warrent.

i will never let someone search crap without a warrant, not even my pockets. i have nothing to hide, but that doesnt mean i will hand my rights away. i guess rights dont mean crap to some people. you should all ban together and live on an island, oh wait they already do, its called Cuba

I don't want to attack ESRANGER375 but this is a topic that I do think about a lot. When we say "I will never be searched without a warrant" or "I will never give up my gun" what do we really mean? I think for most people it means saying no, but what happens next?

When I used to be in law enforcement we had a lot of warnings to the effect of "So and so says we had better come shooting because he won't be taken alive." While I am aware that there are some criminals that do go down shooting, I never saw this actually happen. In my own, personal experience even the "hardened" criminals who were looking at going back to prison for years and years gave up when faced with the prospect of actually shooting it out with the police.

How much more pressure must the law abiding citizen feel then when they aren't breaking the law and they are ordered to give up their weapon? For a criminal who is going to prison, maybe for the rest of their life, there is at least some incentive to fight it out one last time, but for the ordinary guy who isn't facing a prison term, how strong must that pressure be to just let some of their rights slip away. After all, they'll take the handcuffs off when they are done, right?

And then what happens after the fact? Let's just say you gave up your gun, let them put the cuffs on you, let them search your car and when it was over they didn't do anything. They gave your gun back and let you go on your way. What is the incentive to go and file that complaint vs. the incentive to just be glad you are on your merry way?

In a way preserving our rights is maybe a little bit harder to do nowadays. The issues aren't always black and white and a shoot out is unlikely to solve today's problems. We aren't under a general attack with squads of soldiers going around collecting our firearms. It is more like the "death of a thousand cuts". A little bit gets taken here and a little bit gets taken there and we need to get home before our ice cream melts so could you please just search a little bit faster officer? These hand cuffs are starting to hurt.

I don't really know what the right answer is. Like I said, I think about this topic a lot and I try to see both sides. Submitting with a smile on my face and then suing later is a convenient option, unless one day I submit only to find that the courts are closed the next day.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

so if they ask nicely you will give up your rights? if I'm gonna allow a cop to even look up my name, i wanna know what his probable cause is.

Like I said if it's a reasonable request. Not let me search you, and you say ok. If they just say let me search you, with no reasonable reason why then no. I still do not see how complying to a reasonable request, with a reasonable reason is giving up your rights. Lets say you are leaving a bar. At said bar someone pulled a knife, and threatened someone. You where there, and a witness to the incident. You leave, and are later pulled over. You ask why, and the officer explains. You fit the description, of the person suspected of the threat. Height, weight, clothes, etc. If he asks to search, are you going to just say no? In that situation, I did nothing wrong so I'm going to help the best I can. If he is a true professional, then you check out and you are on your way. So you lost 5-10 minutes of your time, maybe helped catch the guy who knows.

Now if he pulled me over, and said get out of the car and just starting searching me that's a different story. I ask why, and get no reasonable answer. That's a totally different situation. I can understand the op's frustration. I think the police, according to his story where very unprofessional and should have handled things a little more tactful. If I was in that situation, and they where professional. Asked to secure my weapon for their safety while they run a check. Why should I fight? I did nothing wrong. Let them do their thing. I'm legal and on my way. Yes I can refuse, but refusing is not always defending a right.

Maybe I fit the description of a wanted criminal, maybe a gun just like mine was used in a murder, etc, etc, etc. They are not going to come out and say that though, unless they are morons! So what I can not understand, is I'm legally in the right why refuse? How is that giving up any rights? Sorry I can not comprehend that. Good cops are only trying to do their job.

So I'll end with one final ? You served, and I thank you for that . My question is though. Where you ever given orders, you did not agree with? I know I did when I was in. However I did my job, and I followed orders. You could refuse, if you felt it was unlawful. However it could be followed with an unpleasant outcome. Rather that outcome is lawful, or not. It does not matter if it's a court martial, or the city court. Lawful, or unlawful. Things do not always work out for your best interest. Good officers are just trying to do their job, just like good service members are trying to do theirs.

On that note before things get heated, I'm going to end it while it's still civil. On another note look forward to training with you!

 

[E5RANGER375]

If he asks to search, are you going to just say no? In that situation, I did nothing wrong so I'm going to help the best I can. If he is a true professional, then you check out and you are on your way. So you lost 5-10 minutes of your time, maybe helped catch the guy who knows.

So I'll end with one final ? You served, and I thank you for that . My question is though. Where you ever given orders, you did not agree with?

On that note before things get heated, I'm going to end it while it's still civil. On another note look forward to training with you!

yes i will tell them no. i dont care if it helps them or not. not my problem, get a warrant.

yes i deffinately was given orders i didnt agree with or like many times but i followed them to the best of my ability because i realized when i swore an oath i gave up my rights as an idividual. i was then part of a larger family and in order for it to work i had to give of myself whole heartedly.

i dont dislike you or anyone for having different oppinions than me. i think its good to have different ways of thought. my wife likes the show sex in the city, i think its the most retarded waste of brain power ever, but i still love her

i look foreward to training with you too. no hard feelings at all.

 

[22rssix]

Anyone else notice that this guy hasnt posted anything else? thats kinda wierd to me.... In 12 hours no other response or status update? I smell a troll

People do have day Jobs. He could have posted then went to bed and got up and went to work. There is a lot of traffic on the forum, but most of it is after work hours.

 

[groovatron]

Nice post, even though my eyes are bleeding now. You did the right thing by complying. However, how I see it from my Law Enforcement experience. You have to look at it from their eyes. They see you have a gun, and they do not know if you a permit or not. Yes it would be stupid to carry in the open without one, but there are stupid people out there. They should have just asked you to release the gun into their custody, until they ran your permit. At least that's what I would have done. I really saw no need to handcuff you. One officer watching you, while the other runs numbers. My

Permit?...what, are we learning how to drive?.......

When a cop pulls you over for a traffic stop, should you surrender your car untill they run the info to make sure that it's not stolen?

So what happens when more and more people start OCing.......are cops just gonna have random OC checkpoint where you are forced to surrender your weapon just because there are stupid people out there?

Sorry, but this is Nazi Germany logic to me......ibtl

 

[Wabatuckian]

You know, we could have scared off a potentially good member.

After all, he did go through all the necessary crap to sign up and relate the story... and folks jumped on him for spelling and such when he was venting (one sentence? c'mon). He's not posted since.

Josh

 

[Mr. Habib]

The current Sheriff of Owen County is Chester "Pudge" Richardson. This is his 1st term as Sheriff but he was the Spencer Town Marshal for several years. This is an election year for the Owen County Sheriff and he faces the former Sheriff in the May Democrat Primary.

I think this is the answer right here. I'll bet that if the OP isn't Harley Melton's Brother in Law he's his next door neighbor.

 

[My Gun My Right]

Hey guys,

Thanks to all that gave good information. I was told about this website from my father last night and figured I would share my story. I am not a "troll" for not for not responding asap I am just busy. I am not the only one that this has happened to in this county and the surrounding countys. I live in bloomington wich is a college town and very liberal the police around here do not like for your gun to be on your hip or even seen. I definitely don't want anyone to think I am bashing the police they put there lives on the line every day and I respect that. You can't blaim them all for two guys mistakes these to were either on a power trip or really misinformed. After reading everyones response I will be definantly be calling the sheriff to ask him if he can update his officers on gun laws. At this point I think it is like most of you said my word againts theres so there is not really much that I can do besides make a phone call and complain. Thanks again for all the info and to anyone who does not beleave my story beleave what you want that is your right.

Thanks Brad
Thanks Brad,

 

[Mr. Habib]

Pudge is a good guy, if this happened like you said, he will certainly look into it.

 

[dross]

What does that have to do, with allowing an officer to hold you gun just to run a check? If an officer/officers knocked on my door. Saying their is a dangerous subject loose, and other officers or witnesses saw him/her head in this direction. Do you mind if we do a quick check? I do not mind, I have nothing to hide. Am I giving up my rights no. To me I'm just helping. What if it was a real situation. I would want the person found. Maybe he snuck in someones unlocked door, or window. They are just doing their job. Yes you can refuse, that's your choice. However your choice, may not be the choice of another. Not to be a jerk, but you are only seeing one side. That of being a civilian. I have seen things from both sides. To me, it helps to see things from a different point of view.

If the officer has no reason to believe that I have committed a crime, he should have no power to detain or arrest me. Carrying a handgun is legal behavior in Indiana. If he politely asked me to see my LTCH, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

What if an officer showed up to your house to ask routine questions and then handcuffed you while he searched your house for weapons that might threaten his safety.

In my book it's a very, very serious violation of my rights to handcuff me and detain me. It's a felony if I do it to another civilian, so for a cop to do it he'd better have a damned good legal reason, which if the poster is to be believed, he clearly did not have in the situation under discussion.

And, if you reread your own comments, I think you'll see exactly how relevant my search without a warrant analogy was.

 

[Mr. Habib]

To the OP. I'm sorry if my first post came across as bashing you. If you are legit then definitely go talk to Pudge about this. I just remember the last election and some of the smear tactics and false accusations from this bunch and your post came across like something they would try. Let us know what happens. BTW