This Is Why You Don't Lock Up Your Guns

[mconley]

I prob would not be here if I had a trigger lock on my smith wesson mp 15t rifle. let me lay the story out for you. Rual country, police 20min out, bad guy with mask kicks the door in and wakes me up, just have enough time to get out of bed, grab my rifle from under it, open the door with me almost in my b-day suit, walk 20 ft to the stairs, and point the gun at the bad guy who was already comming down the stairs with weapon in hand... not 5 sec to spare. Thank you dad for teaching me a gun not ready for use is just a stick.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Here in Indiana, we have the luxury of not having wild critters capable of killing people wandering the area on a regular basis.

Absolutely untrue. My grandparents have lost many pets to coyotes in brown county, also, as a young man I encountered a cougar/puma/mt lion in brown county and here in morgan county we are regularly visited by what appears to be a bobcat.

WHAT THE CRAP IS A 11 YEAR OLD DOING BABY SITTING.

This is what I'd like to know.

Maybe 11 is the new 16. Seriously, my siblings and I were left alone at that age.

So that makes it okay? Sorry, not quite okay, not quite responsible and had the fish and game guys called social services, somebody would spend the next 6 months or more trying to get their kids back.

 

[IndyGunSafety]

This is really worth its own thread…

Like some of you, we have struggled at home about the decision to have a handgun available for a very well trained teenage girl, locked up but nearly instantly available for defense.

I know we have all heard the safety rules a million times. Let's make it a million and one... specifically the NRA’s third one: KEEP YOUR GUNS UNLOADED UNTIL READY TO USE. This includes keeping the ammo and gun in separate secure locations.

But DEFENSE IS USE! Just because you are not shooting a gun at that moment does not mean you are not using it. Concealed (or open!) carry is an example of use. A gun ready for home defense is USE! The spirit of the rule is to not have your bird gun loaded under the bed, your deer rifle in the corner loaded, and your entire handgun collection loaded, with a gun under every pillow.

Even your defense gun should be secured from unauthorized persons. There are many keypad and thumbprint safes out there that allow for very quick access. An unloaded gun is a paperweight in a defense situation. Trigger locks are not for defense guns!

The problem is a teenager is an absolute joy one moment, and a complete idiot the next. The maturity is there as far as safe gun handling, but the emotions and hormones lead to some of the poorest decision making possible, including impulsive actions.

Had the story above been more like “Child shoots sister trying to kill bear” the outcome would be much different from a legal standpoint.

If you provide access to a gun to a kid and something bad happens you are in serious trouble. One has to weigh that against keeping them secured and risking a loved one being hurt by a criminal.

The rules exist because people die without them. We have all heard the rules. Disobey them and fade the wrath.

We don’t leave the 14 year old the keys to the car “in case of an emergency”.

We don’t leave medicines out “in case she gets sick”.

You get the point.

As hard as it is to think of her being hurt by somebody else, it is far worse thinking about her being hurt by me and my failure to follow the rules I have preached to so many. This is an individual decision we must all make, and live with the result. My ... lock 'em up!

On a lighter note… That would be bad for business, wouldn’t it? “Oooooooh… great job there, safety guy!” lol!

 

[Bill of Rights]

Here in Indiana, we have the luxury of not having wild critters capable of killing people wandering the area on a regular basis.

Absolutely untrue. My grandparents have lost many pets to coyotes in brown county, also, as a young man I encountered a cougar/puma/mt lion in brown county and here in morgan county we are regularly visited by what appears to be a bobcat.

WHAT THE CRAP IS A 11 YEAR OLD DOING BABY SITTING.

This is what I'd like to know.

Maybe 11 is the new 16. Seriously, my siblings and I were left alone at that age.

So that makes it okay? Sorry, not quite okay, not quite responsible and had the fish and game guys called social services, somebody would spend the next 6 months or more trying to get their kids back.

OK, let me be a little more specific. I said "on a regular basis". I probably should have said, "In most places here in Indiana", too. There was a cougar loose in the Lafayette area (I think) a week or two ago, too, but it's not common.

As for 11 year olds babysitting, why not? If they behave responsibly and with good judgment, I would support this.

Finally, I was left alone for an evening by myself at 8 or 9, at my request. My behavior was responsible, I had adults to call if needed (this was long before cell phones) and I was trustworthy. The decision as to when a child may stay alone is and should be that of the parent, not the law. Please don't bring the straw man argument of a parent leaving an infant alone into this, the fallacy there is clear.

Social service/CPS was originally designed to serve as a shield to the children. It has regrettably become in some cases a sword used to skewer the parents who dare come to their attention.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[jpo117]

The problem is a teenager is an absolute joy one moment, and a complete idiot the next. The maturity is there as far as safe gun handling, but the emotions and hormones lead to some of the poorest decision making possible, including impulsive actions.

I'm that that far removed from my teenage years, and from what I can recall me and my friends spent a fair amount of time doing stupid, dangerous things. We all made it out alive and none of us ended up in jail, but that's certainly not for lack of trying. The number of times easy access to a firearm could have protected us from an imminent threat is probably very small, and the number of times it could have empowered us to shoot ourselves (or each other) in the foot pretending to be Rambo is probably very large. Then again, many of us had never been exposed to firearms and guns safety and we were probably toward the lower end of the maturity scale anyway...

 

[goColt]

Here in Indiana, we have the luxury of not having wild critters capable of killing people wandering the area on a regular basis...

Uhhhh...I've seen several coyote's in my neighborhood and I live in Speedway which is not exactly the middle of nowhere.

As said before, your house your rules but as for me, I keep most of my guns locked up for several reasons:
1) Theft. No one here seems to have brought that up. My grandfather had several of guns that he made from '03A3 actions stolen decades ago, most of which were never recovered.
2) I have two kids under the age of 4. Try teaching kids this young not to touch a gun. Let me know how that works for you. Anyway, I just wouldn't risk it.
3) Fire. Yes I know, there are people who think fire safes won't do anything in a fire but if there is a chance that a safe can save my guns from ruin, I'll lock 'em up.

I do keep my carry guns out of the safe and within reasonable reach. Sometimes on my person while I am at home, you never know when or where you may need them. Also, we have one of the "Gunvault" safes holding several others that would'nt be to hard to get to in a pinch.

Anyway, that is just my 2 cents. YMMV.

 

[Coach13]

New guy here, great topic, one my wife and I have been talking about.

I started shooting at 10, I got my first gun 12g at 13 and had access 24/7, and trust me, i was a wild ***. But not with guns. For some reason it was over-above-different and my gramps drove a respect for them day one. By 14 he would drop me and my buddy off in the woods and pick us up the next day, guns, amo, fishing, camping, and a cooler full of ice to put all the stuff we killed in. Gramps or anyone ever thought twice about it. At 16, drivers license, me and my buddy left to hunt or shoot about every day after football practice, guns and amo loaded in the trunk. Yea I know, you go to jail now, so kids can't do that one today. But that's what we did.

Roll forward 20 years. Stopped hunting after college, no guns at all actually. Kids now, 3 boys 14-11-7. Had our racing trailer broke into, 30k gone back in Jan 09. Had someone snooping around at night back in June 09. So I picked up a couple 22's thinking it would be good for just in cases, although would really just **** them off if shot, but non the less a good gun for the kids and wife to start with. Then during the last game of the world series I saw a light outside down by my building. Sure enough there was someone breaking in to my outbuilding. Fortunately I was out shooting muscrats in my lakes just a couple hours before so i had a 22 still loaded on the table. Down the hill, gun in hand, and chased them off through the woods. Called Johnson County Sherrifs out but we didn't get them.

My point is also my plan. When we brought the guns home we left both 22's unloaded on the table, actually the homework table right in front of the kids. Yea they were intriguiged early so if they wanted to shoot, well we went and shot, no Q's asked. Now 5 months later they could care less if any gun was out. We don't keep them loaded, but the cartriges are arms length away 24/7. Shooting although fun, it is like shooting hoops in the driveway; they get to do it all the time. There is no appeal in sneaking with the guns. They are totally desensitized while also very afluent with the rifles. Even my 7 year old, when he see us going shooting, grabs his fold up chair to rest the rifle on because the gun weighs as much as he does. We don't have anything bigger yet, which is how I found this forum, but we will be getting them shotguns for Christmas. My plan is not to keep them in their rooms, but where they can get them if they wanted to shoot or in case of emergencie like the great stories posted here. The meth heads losers have been in our trailer, our car, our outbuilding, the only thing left is in the house at the top of the hill. My kids are home alone often while running this one here and that one there. I find great pride and peace in knowing that straight A, well behaved kids and responsible kids could hopefully take care of business in an emergency, including gun necessary emergencies. We added an intruder and truspassing to our fire and tornado drills that we do as a family.

One kid races and makes the money pass under pressure and does it safely, the other always wants the ball when its on the line, and the other wants to be like his brothers. So in a gun related emergency, I only hope that they make the right decisions when under pressure and it all counts. I tell them that outside of hunting & targeting, guns are deturants first, protection/equilizers second. No one wants to shoot someone, but must if no other options exist. I just hope I have done everything I can on this subject at this point. Youth and gun safety I am sure is a constant work in progress with no end. But I will continue to learn from you guys here with out a doubt.

Not casting any stones so hold yours until I get an INGO self image

 

[CountryBoy19]

Let me start by saying that I'm not trying to single you out; your post was just the most recent post that I disagree with so I'm going to address my issues with your post which will mostly cover the other issues.

The issue of leaving your kids home at the age of 12. Geeze, what kind of society do we live in that thinks a 12 year old isn't capable of watching younger siblings? I can remember back to when my dad was leaving us home (3 boys) with my brother who was 10. You would think that the freedom he gave us would've made us become the most mischievous kids there ever were. In fact, it did just the opposite. We were always well behaved when we were left home. The same couldn't be said for when we were left with a babysitter. There were babysitters that refused to come back and watch us again. We nearly burned the barn down once when my cousin was babysitting us. But when dad left us home with my older brother, not a single thing happened; because we recognized the responsibility that had been put in our hands and realized that we couldn't afford to lose dad's trust.

I guess at the ages of 10, 8, and 5 we were just ahead of our time in maturity level. Afterall, no 10, 8, and 5 year old kids can act maturely right?

I was 10 when I got my first gun. When I got my license when I turned 16, every Sunday during the summer I could be found driving myself to trap shoots. Long before that I was trusted to go out in the back yard and practice my trap shooting by myself. If I can be trusted to throw and shoot my own "birds" in the backyard while the parents are inside, or even away from the house, why can't I be trusted to stay at home by myself with a gun sitting in the corner just in case something happens?

Uhhhh...I've seen several coyote's in my neighborhood and I live in Speedway which is not exactly the middle of nowhere.

As said before, your house your rules but as for me, I keep most of my guns locked up for several reasons:

Coyotes are very, very rarely a danger to humans, especially if they're not in a pack. Could somebody provide a comparison of lone coyote attacks on humans in the US compared to lone bear attacks? (breaking into a home could be considered an attack).

I would bet the ratio is less than 1 coyote attack per 10 bear attacks.

Every single coyote I've ever seen ran at the sight of a human. They're very timid animals, and only hunt small game, and scavenge dead animal. Very rarely will they attack any larger animals, and only if they're in a pack.

1) Theft. No one here seems to have brought that up. My grandfather had several of guns that he made from '03A3 actions stolen decades ago, most of which were never recovered.

Really? You would rather give up self-protection to ensure that your guns can't be stolen easily? I know you mentioned that you do keep some out for self-protection, but we're addressing the issue of locking all your guns up away from kids. If you had a responsible 12 yo kid that you left at home for a couple hours while you went out to dinner, would you lock all the guns up away from him so he can't protect himself? I sure wouldn't. Put yourself in the position of the story to find out that you came home and found that a bear had broken into your home and killed your child because you had locked your gun up. You sure were glad the bear didn't steal the gun though aren't you? The insurance will replace the kid so its no problem, right? As you can probably see, there was some sarcasm there, you should have some insurance on your gun, but no amount of insurance can bring a life back. I think you'd much rather have the child protected than worry about the gun being stolen. I can understand locking some, or even most guns up for the reason of theft, but all of them?

2) I have two kids under the age of 4. Try teaching kids this young not to touch a gun. Let me know how that works for you. Anyway, I just wouldn't risk it.

My dad had guns the whole time growing up. Not once were they locked up, and we even knew they were there. As far back as I can remember, dad's .22 bolt rifle sat loaded in the corner of the closet in the kitchen for varmint problems. Not once did we ever pick it up. We may have touched it, but we knew that if it was moved, we would be in lots of trouble. My dad never once was abusive, so its not like we had the fear of an enraged man put into us not to touch it. But we knew that he could still swing a yard stick pretty good. If your kids still touch things that you tell them not to touch, you're not teaching them properly. I'm not here to criticize your parenting though, so I won't go into that.

3) Fire. Yes I know, there are people who think fire safes won't do anything in a fire but if there is a chance that a safe can save my guns from ruin, I'll lock 'em up.

Do you not have homeowner's insurance? My homeowner's insurance will cover all contents of the home up to $300k. If you have a collection bigger than that, then I can understand locking them up, but that doesn't override the self-protection aspect. I would rather sacrifice a few guns to a fire or theft to ensure my children remain protected.

 

[ocsdor]

There are any number of people who would say that guns should be locked away from kids, (rather than teaching them to be safe and responsible tool users). I would rather that kids be taught to treat self defence tools responsibly and have access to them when needed. Laws that have restricted access for juveniles have resulted in the murder of children by criminals and maniacs. Here we have a case where a responsible 11 year old protected his siblings and household from a bear. It sure was nice to see that the fish and game people responded appropriately, too. Kudos to them!
From the Standard Journal

I've got a better idea. How about we don't leave children home alone. That solves lots of problems.

 

[HICKMAN]

I've got a better idea. How about we don't leave children home alone. That solves lots of problems.

Can I rain on the parade here. WHAT THE CRAP IS A 11 YEAR OLD DOING BABY SITTING.

Good job on his part, bad job on parents part.

Uh, at 12 years old, I was trained and certified by the Red Cross to babysit.

What's the big deal?

Designed for 11 to 15 year olds, the Babysitter’s Training course can help you—

• Care for children and infants.
• Be a good leader and role model.
• Make good decisions and solve problems.
• Keep the children you baby-sit and yourself safe
• Handle emergencies such as injuries, illnesses and household accidents.
• Write resumes and interview for jobs.

And much more!

Red Cross Babysitting

 

[ocsdor]

Uh, at 12 years old, I was trained and certified by the Red Cross to babysit.

What's the big deal?

Designed for 11 to 15 year olds, the Babysitter’s Training course can help you—

• Care for children and infants.
• Be a good leader and role model.
• Make good decisions and solve problems.
• Keep the children you baby-sit and yourself safe
• Handle emergencies such as injuries, illnesses and household accidents.
• Write resumes and interview for jobs.

And much more!

Red Cross Babysitting

Did they teach you to shoot bears too?

 

[CountryBoy19]

I've got a better idea. How about we don't leave children home alone. That solves lots of problems.

Well, welcome to the conversation, that pretty much seems to be the topic of discussion; you're a bit behind.

Did they teach you to shoot bears too?

That is besides the point.

The discussion has seemed to turn to being about whether or not children should be able to act responsibly at that age and be left home to babysit younger siblings.

IMHO, there is nothing wrong with leaving a 12 yo at home to babysit, IF they've shown that they can be responsible and trusted. And that decision is not YOURS to make, it is the decisions of the child's parents.

That being said, I don't think very many people here would disagree with the fact that if you trust your child enough to stay home and babysit, they can also be trusted to have and use a firearm at that time for protection (assuming they've been trained to do so). This news story only backs that fact up, and shows that a child of that age can be trusted to act responsibly given the situation.

It isn't the red-cross's resposponsibility to do that training; it is the parents'. He posted that to demonstrate that many people, including the red-cross think it is acceptable to leave someone of that age at home without an adult, the use of the gun is irrelevant to that post.

 

[Coach13]

Think about how horrified the general public would be at first if they read this tread! It's beautiful..........

This is exactly why I am becoming more and more old-fashoned and old school. I choose to raise my kids with straight talk, *** kickings and fire arms, and a lot of room and chances to prove to me that they are gettting the message! If they don't get it and mess up, well then, that's where we go to work next time. Three strikes, goes something like Let's talk, then the give me cell for a few days, then *** is kicked. Don't get to step three anymore.......... Download Complete

Varsity football coach 19 years, I don't hug my players when they mess up! Only when they overcome their mental obstacles. Don't have to yell at them much either, so long as they trust and respect me. Same with my kids.

 

[edsinger]

When I grew up we did not lock them up, a locked up gun is useless if you NEED it. It is responsibility and training. I know that if I got into my dad's 44 I was in deep .... This is a Modern Problem in most cases. My arse would have burned for days if I did something I was not supposed to, BUT if I would have needed it, then I knew exactly where it was..

Age 8-16

 

[finity]

So that makes it okay? Sorry, not quite okay, not quite responsible and had the fish and game guys called social services, somebody would spend the next 6 months or more trying to get their kids back.

What makes it OK is that the parents felt they could trust the kid.

I babysat my siblings (who were 4 & 5) when I was 10. Both my parents worked over 50 miles away. I cooked, cleaned, etc. Nobody died or got seriously hurt (just normal kd stuff) & social services never got involved.

Boy how times have changed.

.
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2) I have two kids under the age of 4. Try teaching kids this young not to touch a gun. Let me know how that works for you. Anyway, I just wouldn't risk it.
.
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I do keep my carry guns out of the safe and within reasonable reach. Sometimes on my person while I am at home, you never know when or where you may need them. Also, we have one of the "Gunvault" safes holding several others that would'nt be to hard to get to in a pinch.

Nobody is trying to suggest that you should leave your guns out where a 4 YEAR OLD can get them. We're saying if the older child shows that they are responsible & have been trained then leaving them accessability is a reasonable choice.

 

[rimfire_crazed]

I'm a little younger, and my parents wouldn't have allowed a gun in the house, period, let alone a loaded one. My experiences with firearms were limited to the Rifle and Shotgun shooting Merit Badges in the Boy Scouts, where i learned a healthy respect for firearms. My grandparents never hid the deer rifles and were keen to answer questions.

There are an awful lot of things to consider before keeping firearms unlocked in the house. I usually have a pistol with a full mag / but nothing in the chamber, and a bolt action .22 for varmints. The rounds are usually within reach but not in view.

However, there are no prying eyes in the house. I would have to strongly reconsider if that was the case.

 

[goColt]

Lighten up Francis. Geez, did I steal something from you or run over your dog or something? This is one of the most ill-conceived posts I think I've ever come across.

Really? You would rather give up self-protection to ensure that your guns can't be stolen easily...I can understand locking some, or even most guns up for the reason of theft, but all of them?...

Uhhh...didn't I say I keep my carry guns out and easily accessible? I haven't given up anything. Also, where did I say that you should lock-up ALL your guns? As a matter of fact I SPECIFICALLY said I don't lock them all up. You might wanna read a little more carefully before replying.

I'm not here to criticize your parenting though, so I won't go into that.

Gee thanks.

Do you not have homeowner's insurance? My homeowner's insurance will cover all contents of the home up to $300k. If you have a collection bigger than that, then I can understand locking them up, but that doesn't override the self-protection aspect. I would rather sacrifice a few guns to a fire or theft to ensure my children remain protected.

So let me get this straight: You just leave all your guns laying around the house because you have insurance? None of your guns mean anything to you other than their dollar value? No sentimentality at all? You don't have a gun that was given to you by your dad? Or maybe the first one you ever purchased? Or maybe the gun you bagged your first deer with? Or maybe one you've always wanted? Or one that can't easily be replaced if at all. I happen to have several that fall into one or all of these categories.

One more thing; what if one of your guns was stolen and used to kill someone? What if it was someone you knew? Your conscience wouldn't bother you even a little bit?

Just a suggestion but maybe you should think a little harder before you post.

 

[jwglock]

"Human safety is a higher priority" (from the original article)

There is the bottom line. For my self and my family, I decide. I could care less what big brother, lttle aunt Ellie or anyone else thinks... My decision!

 

[FPDDURAMAX]

mine all know how to properly handle them but also know they are OFF LIMITS!!!! And locked in the safe when I am not around!!

 

[CountryBoy19]

Lighten up Francis. Geez, did I steal something from you or run over your dog or something? This is one of the most ill-conceived posts I think I've ever come across.


Uhhh...didn't I say I keep my carry guns out and easily accessible? I haven't given up anything. Also, where did I say that you should lock-up ALL your guns? As a matter of fact I SPECIFICALLY said I don't lock them all up. You might wanna read a little more carefully before replying.

Your post made it sound as if you were the only person in the house that had access to the guns. If you apply your logic to this scenario, and your 12 y.o. son was left home to watch the other children, your post implied that every single gun would be locked up. Leaving your children helpless in that situation. Forget about leaving your 12 y.o. home to babysit for a minute, if you trusted them well enough to do that, would you not trust them to also responsibly handle a gun? That was the point I was trying to make.

So let me get this straight: You just leave all your guns laying around the house because you have insurance? None of your guns mean anything to you other than their dollar value? No sentimentality at all? You don't have a gun that was given to you by your dad? Or maybe the first one you ever purchased? Or maybe the gun you bagged your first deer with? Or maybe one you've always wanted? Or one that can't easily be replaced if at all. I happen to have several that fall into one or all of these categories.

First of all, no, I don't leave them all laying around, but I don't lock every single one up when I'm not immediately there either. I trust the others in my house to use a gun responsibly, and I don't want to disarm them just because I'm not there. Yes, I have guns that have sentimental value, but that value means nothing anymore when myself or one of my family members is dead because all the guns were locked up. I'm sorry, but my own life and my family members' lives have more sentimental value than any gun I'll ever own.

One more thing; what if one of your guns was stolen and used to kill someone? What if it was someone you knew? Your conscience wouldn't bother you even a little bit?

No, my conscience wouldn't bother me one bit. The person stole a gun and used it in a crime. Maybe if I had given that person a gun, or sold it to them even though my better judgement told me not to sell it to that person, but they took it from me. I wouldn't feel guilty one bit, they obviously had it in their mind to commit those crimes, locking my gun up wouldn't have stopped them.

Just a suggestion but maybe you should think a little harder before you post.

Maybe you should think a little more before you post as well.