This is what $700,000,000 bought us?

[hornadylnl]

The truth of the matter is that if the stadium were profitable, private businesses or individuals would foot the bill to fund it.

Seriously, how much money can be brought in to 1 city for 8-10 football games and the very few other events that are held at LOS? Irsay gets half of all non colts revenue so you know the city isn't making that much on non colts stuff.

 

[IndyBeerman]

You think the tax is worth it because it is something you enjoy. Should we subsidize all hobbies? Maybe Indy should build a scrapbooking emporium at taxpayer expense and let all of the people of Indy pay for it while the "owner" of the emporium pockets hundreds of millions of dollars.

Once the construction project is finished with the Convention center, L.O.S. & the CC will back up to being used over 300 days a year again. I believe at one time Indianapolis was once listed in the top 5 for conventions. Because of the limited space that was available we started losing that instant economic impact.

Just imagine how much the FFA pumps into Indianapolis and the surrounding counties when they are here for the 3 days.

Over 50.000 adults and teenagers attended, easily spending over $125.00 a day, that's 6.25 million dollars that is spread out from Plainfield to Greenfield, Greenwood to Carmel. That's people coming into our town and throwing money our way.

People don't stop and look at the BIG picture, all they want to biotch about is that we spent 700 Million on a football stadium.

It's not a football only stadium.

 

[hornadylnl]

Once the construction project is finished with the Convention center, L.O.S. & the CC will back up to being used over 300 days a year again. I believe at one time Indianapolis was once listed in the top 5 for conventions. Because of the limited space that was available we started losing that instant economic impact.

Just imagine how much the FFA pumps into Indianapolis and the surrounding counties when they are here for the 3 days.

Over 50.000 adults and teenagers attended, easily spending over $125.00 a day, that's 6.25 million dollars that is spread out from Plainfield to Greenfield, Greenwood to Carmel. That's people coming into our town and throwing money our way.

People don't stop and look at the BIG picture, all they want to biotch about is that we spent 700 Million on a football stadium.

It's not a football only stadium.

I guess all of those who push back against the Brady Campaign is just biotching about a group trying to take away their freedom to bear arms. Apparently using the force of government to steal a different freedom (right to property) is okay in your eyes. Name any other industry that enjoys having their facilities built for them by force of government.

I don't care if LOS and the CC bring in a $trillion a day, how much are your and your neighbors freedom worth? If a government entity were to try to buy my house at it's appraised price today, I'd be moved out by tomorrow. I'm a willing partner in that situation. Hurst was not as well as the other property owner bullied by the government.

 

[antdog/zook]

I think the Founders would accept this long before they would the Fed Gov being involved, if they accepted it at all. I really don't know how it all came about, but I know I did not vote for my taxes to be used for anything sports-related. I do not buy logo-enriched merchandise, I do not go to their games, and I don't watch them on my TV. If they happen to be on somewhere else where I am, meh. I don't really care either way. (Although, if I need to change the subject in an uncomfortable moment, that's kinda my fallback: "Hey, how 'bout them Colts?" I'm sure one of these days that will backfire when they're having a losing season and I don't know about it. Once again... Meh.
Stuff like this, IF it's to involve government at all, should be a referendum vote. Personally, I prefer "let it stand on it's own or fall on it's own." If the team owner wants a new stadium, let him build it. If he can't, let him go out and find donors. Failing that, no new stadium... or maybe one without all the flash and razzamatazz.

But I guess I'm old-fashioned that way.

Meh.

Blessings,
Bill

AMEN BILL!

The money it brings is laughable at best. Not only that, Marion Co./Indy pays a very large amount of property taxes to the _state._ As such, why do a small % of the population get taxed to pay for this thing benefiting the entire state? Any study done would be suspect, because either side would use the stats and figures to support their side. The truth is that no one can say if bringing the Colts here really did anything that good for the city/state, except maybe making some people happy. That is because we can't compare a Colts Indianapolis with a non-Colts Indianapolis, as one doesn't exist. Clearly our tax subsidized sports teams have had an influence on causing some businesses here to flourish, but I honestly feel that most of the wealth went to a select few. All I hear is how having a pro-sports team brings in business, gives good PR, etc.. Well, where are all the massive businesses that move to Indy because of the Colts? Using that logic, we should have two or three Lilly/Simon type companies that came running as soon as we built the Dome, Lucas Oil, Victory Field, and Conseco. That didn't happen and it doesn't happen. The only big name organization/company that I think might have come due to our sports capital was the NCAA, and they only came after they were given a bribe. (The bribe was that we would let them build their HQ in a property tax free state park. We essentially gave them a life time exemption on property taxes.).

The easiest way to disprove all the "financial benefit" arguments is to ask those who claim such: "If these ventures being in so much money (income, sales tax), then why do we need any special taxes to pay for them?" Now, they will say that those taxes go to the state, not directly to the project. Yes, they are right, but even if you were to pass a special law directing all those taxes to pay for the project, it still would need more taxation. The stadium costs $750M+interest. If you took all the taxes Irsay paid, all those that the players paid (including Pacers, Indians), and all the sales taxes from the stuff sold at the Lucas Oil...would that be enough to pay for this venture? If so, then that is what _should_ happen, direct taxation to cover the costs of such projects. Even with this, you are going to have lots of Ir$ay types out there requesting law changes for special tax direction to fund their own pet projects.

INDEED! they make millions, let all the players/team owners/supporters take care of their needs for new facilities!

the rca dome WAS the 6th best indoor sports facility in the country(1 year ago). 24 years old, and out of date? was just renovated to hold 20,000 more people in 2001. put some new paint on it, and call it good! "cant do that, no money washing going on, no one will get fat pockets from that"

todays tickets are $114. sure i have bought concessions at a movie, and yes they are high, but i only paid $12.50 for the movie, x2 with my girl popcorn and 2 drinks $40 at the most.
so $228 for 2 seats then 2 drinks and couple hotdogs parking, we'll just round it off to $300 for the day. $7 for a beer??????? hell if i bought 2 i can get a case at local drugstore.supermarket for that. add that there might be a rodent's terd in the nachos, popcorn, ect....ill pass! how many local colts fans could afford to go to games in new stadium? what is the price of a regular general admission ticket? its all just another 'laundering". how much more will the future "connection" from lucas to new convention center addition cost local property tax payers of marion co?
market square arena was imploded for a new city county building/new condos downtown? nice gravel parking lot there now..lol
but there is a new arena for the pacers, i meant "thug ballplayers" and they are an awesome team..lol such role models as well.
somethings are just better left alone! bush stadium was just a classic, and very cool ballpark! spend some money on it and leave it alone, but a new ballpark downtown would be better? just a bigger pain really parking,concessions, ect! after the little racing deal failed there, it just sits as an abandoned memory.....such a shame! 2 other places you wont find me "conseco" "victory field" you have been shammed...lol

 

[hornadylnl]

Just think how much money our governments could make off of scrap steel if we all turned our guns in. Plus, it's for the children.

 

[tedbower]

The truth of the matter is that if the stadium were profitable, private businesses or individuals would foot the bill to fund it.

Seriously, how much money can be brought in to 1 city for 8-10 football games and the very few other events that are held at LOS? Irsay gets half of all non colts revenue so you know the city isn't making that much on non colts stuff.

Finally someone else saying what I have for years.

 

[hornadylnl]

I wonder how many colts fans that pay $50+ for a gallon of beer at the stadium want the government to intervene when gas goes from $2.50 to $2.60 agallon in the same game.

 

[IndyBeerman]

I guess all of those who push back against the Brady Campaign is just biotching about a group trying to take away their freedom to bear arms. Apparently using the force of government to steal a different freedom (right to property) is okay in your eyes. Name any other industry that enjoys having their facilities built for them by force of government.

I don't care if LOS and the CC bring in a a day, how much are your and your neighbors freedom worth? If a government entity were to try to buy my house at it's appraised price today, I'd be moved out by tomorrow. I'm a willing partner in that situation. Hurst was not as well as the other property owner bullied by the government.

Eminent Domain was used on the Comfort Inn, which relocated next to LOS, and the old warehouse that was painted with the giant Colts horseshoe, the rest was parking space that was owned by the CIB for Dome parking. Of course there was there Hurst part, but that is a mute point because it is no longer a issue.

the rca dome WAS the 6th best indoor sports facility in the country(1 year ago). 24 years old, and out of date? was just renovated to hold 20,000 more people in 2001. put some new paint on it, and call it good! "cant do that, no money washing going on, no one will get fat pockets from that"

todays tickets are $114. sure i have bought concessions at a movie, and yes they are high, but i only paid $12.50 for the movie, x2 with my girl popcorn and 2 drinks $40 at the most.

Hard to believe that the RCA Dome was the 6th best indoor sports facility a year ago when it was not even standing, incase you forgot it was imploded over a year ago, and it was not renovated to hold 20,000 more seats, it seated 57,900 for football . Modifications was done to the RCA Dome in 2001 to expand suites and add club seating, before that was done, the seating for football was 58,272. So it LOST SEATING.

Here's a small list of stadiums that is better than the Dome
Georgia Dome
Reliant Stadium
QWest Stadium
Ford Field
Edward Jones Dome
University of Phoenix Stadium
Louisiana SuperDome (After refurb from Katrina)


This just from the top of my head might be more, but all 7 was better than the RCA Dome.

Now ticket prices, range from 34 to 119, more for Club and Suite seats.

 

[hornadylnl]

yes or no, is your entertainment worth more than my right to property? It's good to know who's on my side when I need them.

Why couldn't they build the stadium where there was ample land instead of the jackboots forcing people out of their property? I went to 1 Indians game this year because I got discounted tickets through work. I enjoyed the game but never again. It was an absolute nightmare getting out of that place. They should have put these things just outside the 465 loop like the airport with an on and off ramp dedicated to it. Who cares about that excrement hole of a downtown. Let the thugs have it.

Eminent Domain was used on the Comfort Inn, which relocated next to LOS, and the old warehouse that was painted with the giant Colts horseshoe, the rest was parking space that was owned by the CIB for Dome parking. Of course there was there Hurst part, but that is a mute point because it is no longer a issue.



Hard to believe that the RCA Dome was the 6th best indoor sports facility a year ago when it was not even standing, incase you forgot it was imploded over a year ago, and it was not renovated to hold 20,000 more seats, it seated 57,900 for football . Modifications was done to the RCA Dome in 2001 to expand suites and add club seating, before that was done, the seating for football was 58,272. So it LOST SEATING.

Here's a small list of stadiums that is better than the Dome
Georgia Dome
Reliant Stadium
QWest Stadium
Ford Field
Edward Jones Dome
University of Phoenix Stadium
Louisiana SuperDome (After refurb from Katrina)


This just from the top of my head might be more, but all 7 was better than the RCA Dome.

Now ticket prices, range from 34 to 119, more for Club and Suite seats.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Oh, fine, horn, and to think I was going to share my deep fried mice with you.

Maybe you can have some of my mouse on a stick (more of a state fair food?)?

 

[antdog/zook]

LOL KIRK!

I apologize about the seating figure, not that 20,000 more, just 50% more seating in suites.

 

[Indy317]

Once the construction project is finished with the Convention center, L.O.S. & the CC will back up to being used over 300 days a year again. I believe at one time Indianapolis was once listed in the top 5 for conventions. Because of the limited space that was available we started losing that instant economic impact.

Just imagine how much the FFA pumps into Indianapolis and the surrounding counties when they are here for the 3 days.

Over 50.000 adults and teenagers attended, easily spending over $125.00 a day, that's 6.25 million dollars that is spread out from Plainfield to Greenfield, Greenwood to Carmel. That's people coming into our town and throwing money our way.

People don't stop and look at the BIG picture, all they want to biotch about is that we spent 700 Million on a football stadium.

It's not a football only stadium.

You know, that "used for 300 days" line is very, very misleading. There used to be a few meetings that groups/companies would have in some rooms at the Hoosier Dome. That counted, a dang meeting or 20-30 people. The football stadium, which is _exactly_ what it is, is only used at it's peak a few times a year. During the vast majority of those events, a sole company is making lots and lots of money, all the while the city of Indy, via a quasi and shady 'public-private partnership' entity, the CIB, is going broke trying to keep the place up and running. For every statistic, there is additional information. It is used 300 times a year!! OK, for what specifically? What is the exact amount spent on concessions those 300 times a year? How many sales does the pro-shop make during each of those 300 uses? Again, that number is very misleading.

Indy already lost their biggest convention, it isn't coming back. We now get to "share" the FFA with Louisville, another negative. The Black Expo and Circle City Classic are having trouble. GenCon filed for bankruptcy and while they claim it won't ever hurt their convention here, who knows for sure.

I have seen the big picture: These "multi-purpose" stadiums don't make money, as such those elites who want them need others to foot some portion of the bill. If they made money, Ir$ay would have built it himself, taking 100% of all the revenues, but he didn't, because they don't make money. Such expenditures are too massive, especially for small market cities. The National Fascist League would throw a hissy fit if government continued to try and pass more and more laws aimed solely at them, yet they have no problem allowing their team owners to feed at the government trough filled with tax money.

I wonder how many colts fans that pay $50+ for a gallon of beer at the stadium want the government to intervene when gas goes from $2.50 to $2.60 agallon in the same game.

Exactly why I still predict this country will be close to a third world country in 20 years. The above you mention I call "me, myself, and I" socialism. It is aimed at hypocrites who are 90% conservative, pro-individual freedom on most things, but they are OK with stealing from others, government controls, etc. when it benefits _them_ personally. The smoking ban is a perfect example. We have "me, me, me" socialists who want the ban extended to all bars because they are ticked the Slippy Noodle isn't smoke free, or they want their college aged kids to be able to go to The Vogue and not have to deal with smoking. If you really wanted to save people, ban the public consumption of alcoholic beverages, or at least limit the number of beverages a bar/club/restaurant can serve to any one person to two. That would lower drunk driving, not let people get so blitzed (because the current law of not serving drunk folks is ignored repeatedly) to start trouble, etc..

I benefit from higher education in our state, maybe I should continue to champion 5% year after year increases in tuition. I mean what is another $10K-$50K in student loan debt to your kids so that I can get a 2% raise every year? Their debt doesn't affect me, actually it benefits me financially, so maybe I should be all for it?

Again, at least with this tax rape of the public, the public can turn around and screw someone else and get out of paying "their fair share." By this I mean deducting 2% from your tip in Marion Co., .5% in the surrounding counties.

 

[hornadylnl]

You know, that "used for 300 days" line is very, very misleading. There used to be a few meetings that groups/companies would have in some rooms at the Hoosier Dome. That counted, a dang meeting or 20-30 people. The football stadium, which is _exactly_ what it is, is only used at it's peak a few times a year. During the vast majority of those events, a sole company is making lots and lots of money, all the while the city of Indy, via a quasi and shady 'public-private partnership' entity, the CIB, is going broke trying to keep the place up and running. For every statistic, there is additional information. It is used 300 times a year!! OK, for what specifically? What is the exact amount spent on concessions those 300 times a year? How many sales does the pro-shop make during each of those 300 uses? Again, that number is very misleading.

Indy already lost their biggest convention, it isn't coming back. We now get to "share" the FFA with Louisville, another negative. The Black Expo and Circle City Classic are having trouble. GenCon filed for bankruptcy and while they claim it won't ever hurt their convention here, who knows for sure.

I have seen the big picture: These "multi-purpose" stadiums don't make money, as such those elites who want them need others to foot some portion of the bill. If they made money, Ir would have built it himself, taking 100% of all the revenues, but he didn't, because they don't make money. Such expenditures are too massive, especially for small market cities. The National Fascist League would throw a hissy fit if government continued to try and pass more and more laws aimed solely at them, yet they have no problem allowing their team owners to feed at the government trough filled with tax money.



Exactly why I still predict this country will be close to a third world country in 20 years. The above you mention I call "me, myself, and I" socialism. It is aimed at hypocrites who are 90% conservative, pro-individual freedom on most things, but they are OK with stealing from others, government controls, etc. when it benefits _them_ personally. The smoking ban is a perfect example. We have "me, me, me" socialists who want the ban extended to all bars because they are ticked the Slippy Noodle isn't smoke free, or they want their college aged kids to be able to go to The Vogue and not have to deal with smoking. If you really wanted to save people, ban the public consumption of alcoholic beverages, or at least limit the number of beverages a bar/club/restaurant can serve to any one person to two. That would lower drunk driving, not let people get so blitzed (because the current law of not serving drunk folks is ignored repeatedly) to start trouble, etc..

I benefit from higher education in our state, maybe I should continue to champion 5% year after year increases in tuition. I mean what is another $10K-$50K in student loan debt to your kids so that I can get a 2% raise every year? Their debt doesn't affect me, actually it benefits me financially, so maybe I should be all for it?

Again, at least with this tax rape of the public, the public can turn around and screw someone else and get out of paying "their fair share." By this I mean deducting 2% from your tip in Marion Co., .5% in the surrounding counties.

I went to rep you but it says I have to spread it around first.

 

[IndyParts]

Don't blame property taxes on Lucas Oil Stadium.

Blame it on some property owners who started the whole "Market Value" tax, before the increase went haywire property taxes were based on "True Tax" or replacement value.

This place must be totally wrong then

Advance Indiana: Lucas Oil Success Translates Into Higher Costs For Taxpayers
Monday, July 13, 2009

Lucas Oil Success Translates Into Higher Costs For Taxpayers


The Star's Dan McFeely has a story today entitled, "Lucas Oil Stadium Has Shown Success In Bookings." His story focuses on the ability to book 155 events during its first 320 days of operation. That translates into more money for Colts' owner Jim Irsay and higher costs for taxpayers. You need to check out the sidebar to McFeely's story to get into those nitty-gritty details. Unlike the RCA Dome, all of the revenues generated from the stadium go to the Colts, and taxpayers get stuck footing the bill for all of the expenses, which are close to $15 million a year higher than the RCA Dome:

According to the CIB's 2008 budget, operating expenses rose by about $14.9 million, or 26 percent, when the new stadium opened. Meanwhile, operating revenues decreased: The new contract with the Colts forced the CIB to give up about $3 million in game-day concessions revenue, $1.3 million in advertising income (when the Lucas naming rights went to the Colts) and $2.5 million in labor reimbursements because of an agreement that calls for the CIB to pay all game-day security costs. And the light bill went up about $1 million.​

The sidebar to the story suggests some of those costs were offset by capital contributions from the Colts of $102 million. That's bull****. The Colts kicked in nothing for the new stadium. Half of that money came form the break-up fee for the old lease, which taxpayers had to cough up and then the Colts graciously agreed to forgive, a little shell game the CIB played to make it look like they were contributing something. The rest of the money came from the NFL, not the Colts. The sidebar also suggests the CIB is getting more revenues to pay for those expenses from the taxes that were raised to build the new stadium. Something doesn't add up there. When the stadium deal passed, the state legislature and the governor refused to agree to allow any of those new revenues to be used to pay for operating expenses; all of the revenues were to be used exclusively to pay down the debt on the bonds.

The sad part of this saga is that taxpayers are financially better off if the stadium sits empty all but those 10 days a year the Colts are playing in it. Even worse for local groups is the near-doubling of rental charges for using the stadium, 13 cents per square foot versus 24 cents per square foot. McFeely's story also fails to discuss the subsidies taxpayers pay to groups through the ICVA to host their events in Indianapolis because our costs are too high. For some reason, the Star doesn't want its readers to know this dirty little secret.

 

[hornadylnl]

This place must be totally wrong then

Advance Indiana: Lucas Oil Success Translates Into Higher Costs For Taxpayers
Monday, July 13, 2009

Lucas Oil Success Translates Into Higher Costs For Taxpayers


The Star's Dan McFeely has a story today entitled, "Lucas Oil Stadium Has Shown Success In Bookings." His story focuses on the ability to book 155 events during its first 320 days of operation. That translates into more money for Colts' owner Jim Irsay and higher costs for taxpayers. You need to check out the sidebar to McFeely's story to get into those nitty-gritty details. Unlike the RCA Dome, all of the revenues generated from the stadium go to the Colts, and taxpayers get stuck footing the bill for all of the expenses, which are close to $15 million a year higher than the RCA Dome:

According to the CIB's 2008 budget, operating expenses rose by about $14.9 million, or 26 percent, when the new stadium opened. Meanwhile, operating revenues decreased: The new contract with the Colts forced the CIB to give up about $3 million in game-day concessions revenue, $1.3 million in advertising income (when the Lucas naming rights went to the Colts) and $2.5 million in labor reimbursements because of an agreement that calls for the CIB to pay all game-day security costs. And the light bill went up about $1 million.​

The sidebar to the story suggests some of those costs were offset by capital contributions from the Colts of $102 million. That's bull****. The Colts kicked in nothing for the new stadium. Half of that money came form the break-up fee for the old lease, which taxpayers had to cough up and then the Colts graciously agreed to forgive, a little shell game the CIB played to make it look like they were contributing something. The rest of the money came from the NFL, not the Colts. The sidebar also suggests the CIB is getting more revenues to pay for those expenses from the taxes that were raised to build the new stadium. Something doesn't add up there. When the stadium deal passed, the state legislature and the governor refused to agree to allow any of those new revenues to be used to pay for operating expenses; all of the revenues were to be used exclusively to pay down the debt on the bonds.

The sad part of this saga is that taxpayers are financially better off if the stadium sits empty all but those 10 days a year the Colts are playing in it. Even worse for local groups is the near-doubling of rental charges for using the stadium, 13 cents per square foot versus 24 cents per square foot. McFeely's story also fails to discuss the subsidies taxpayers pay to groups through the ICVA to host their events in Indianapolis because our costs are too high. For some reason, the Star doesn't want its readers to know this dirty little secret.

Those who like the Colts and wanted this stadium will go to the ends of the earth to justify it's existence. Integrity is about siding with the truth whether it suits us or not.

I would like to walk to my neighbors property to shoot on a 1000 yard range but no matter how badly I want to do it, I can't justify the state coming in to take my neighbors property if they are unwilling to sell it to the state or a private company who wants to build that range. My neighbor's right to his property trumps any wishes that I may have for using his property.

 

[IndyParts]

Personally, I have a new idea. Why don't we stop paying for sports and switch to a "Pay to Play"

Seems odd that they are getting paid to do what they like :-)

 

[hornadylnl]

Personally, I have a new idea. Why don't we stop paying for sports and switch to a "Pay to Play"

Seems odd that they are getting paid to do what they like :-)

No, pay to play is how they do it in high school around here. Your daddy puts a good sum in the athletic boosters and you get to try out for quarterback.

 

[IndyBeerman]

yes or no, is your entertainment worth more than my right to property? It's good to know who's on my side when I need them.

Why couldn't they build the stadium where there was ample land instead of the jackboots forcing people out of their property? I went to 1 Indians game this year because I got discounted tickets through work. I enjoyed the game but never again. It was an absolute nightmare getting out of that place. They should have put these things just outside the 465 loop like the airport with an on and off ramp dedicated to it. Who cares about that excrement hole of a downtown. Let the thugs have it.

hornadylnl, you sir fall into the same category as my B.I.L. (a Steelers fan)you chastise, criticize and biotch about anything that relates to the Colts.

Yet you as a Patriot's fan and him as a Steeler's don't see the irony of your biotching, you see both these cites built new stadiums with taxpayer monies, both are open air stadiums, and yes both properties that those stadiums sit on, eminent domain was used to procure those lands. Those stadiums are used for football and open air concerts from late spring to early fall with as little as 30 dates total use. Lucas Oil has already been used more than 3 times as much in the 14 months it has been open than either one in that time frame. So it looks kike Indy is getting more bang for it's buck, and will continue to do so you many years to come.

Feel free to move to Patriot land where you can live in the land of the far left, your cost of living is 1.5 times higher and taxes are 3 times higher than here.

In case you think I'm serious, I'm not, just trying to put thing in perspective that it is like this in any town that has a pro or college sports team.

 

[IndyParts]

No, pay to play is how they do it in high school around here. Your daddy puts a good sum in the athletic boosters and you get to try out for quarterback.

But honestly, where is the wrong in this? My son will likely play one sport if not two. I have no problem with paying to allow him to be able to play. Why should it be free?

Just like what you said about wanting to have a range next door to your house, but if your neighbor didn't want it on his land, then that was his right.

What if your neighbor doesn't have kids and doesn't ever plan to have them. Why should he pay the same as the person with 4 kids who all play sports?

 

[IndyParts]

Yet you as a Patriot's fan and him as a Steeler's don't see the irony of your biotching, you see both these cites built new stadiums with taxpayer monies........

Don't blame property taxes on Lucas Oil Stadium.

I didn't think that Lucas was funded by tax payers? Are you a politician?