Things that draw attention....or should

[mercop]

Oh no, just got another neg point say "I don't approve of your profiling". Well I don't profile anymore, I am retired. But guess what, to the best of my knowledge I never violated anyone's rights. I taught my techniques to lots of officers and continue to do so.

This stuff was not posted to provoke academic detached chin rubbing, it was intended to show you the way police who spend their time with these types of people learn to spot and survive threats. - George

 

[flagtag]

Ok, people. Don't think of it as "profiling". Think of it as "warning signs" that could save your life/property.

People often give "signals" of thier intentions - some (most?) of which could be negative. They may be subtle or overt. But, if we miss them, WE could be in a lot of trouble.

I, for one, would like to know some of those things to look out for.

Sometimes the way a person (no matter what color) dresses, walks, talks, glances at someone/something, tilts his head, etc. could be a dead giveaway. Also, how, where, when that someone drives could be a clue to thier intentions, or mean absolutely nothing.

I also know that the officers in the town where I work don't always have the same area to patrol forever. They rotate. How are they supposed to know who "belongs" there if they haven't seen them there before?

You might want to think of it this was as well: they are also protecting YOU when they stop someone (even you) to see if you belong there. (Could you be forced to drive someone somewhere, etc.?)
There is more than one way to look at it. I choose to be positive about it.

 

[LEaSH]

Not meaning to state the obvious, but everyone profiles. It's just that we all don't have to interact with those we keep an eye on.

We don't have to aproach a questionable character - in fact if you're not a LEO you're asking for a liability if you do. We just keep wary of certain types, don't we?

Has anyone ever tried to carry on a conversation with someone when you were trying to keep an eye on a questionable 3rd party? It's tough to ignore something that's out of place.

Now having said all that, most cops I know and call friends and those I know only as acquaintances, they live in somewhat of a closed community. They listen to the same crappy music and have similarly crappy haircuts. It's a closed sub-culture. They chose that life. They don't always understand the way we choose to live and don't care to try to understand. It's a tough nut and it's felt on all sides.

I don't fault the cops for the way that they feel they have to operate. I've been hassled plenty. Never was I up to doing nefarious deeds or anything. I dismiss their ignorance as fear. It is fear that dictates their M.O.
I would probably use similar tactics in the same situation.

 

[caddywhompus]

MERCOP is right: pay attention to the little things. I like to count dip cans, pocket knives and cell hones when I go out. It's amazing what you can notice when you pay attention to your surroundings. It may save you a lot of trouble or your life.

 

[groovatron]

Ok, people. Don't think of it as "profiling". Think of it as "warning signs" that could save your life/property.

People often give "signals" of thier intentions - some (most?) of which could be negative. They may be subtle or overt. But, if we miss them, WE could be in a lot of trouble.

I, for one, would like to know some of those things to look out for.

Sometimes the way a person (no matter what color) dresses, walks, talks, glances at someone/something, tilts his head, etc. could be a dead giveaway. Also, how, where, when that someone drives could be a clue to thier intentions, or mean absolutely nothing.

I also know that the officers in the town where I work don't always have the same area to patrol forever. They rotate. How are they supposed to know who "belongs" there if they haven't seen them there before?

You might want to think of it this was as well: they are also protecting YOU when they stop someone (even you) to see if you belong there. (Could you be forced to drive someone somewhere, etc.?)
There is more than one way to look at it. I choose to be positive about it.

This is true, however, it really depends on where you are at. I agree that watching people and being aware of their actions and gestures is very important. I find myself doing it all the time. I have lived around some pretty shady neighboorhoods and these things can be a tough thing to decifer. For example, there are a ton of gas stations in Hammond where 90% of their clientele walks into the gas station in a huge hoodie with their hands in their pockets, lookin' over their shoulder, and walkin' with a "limp." You put these folks in a gas station in most parts of IN and every eye on the place would be on them. It's the norm in parts of Hammond, East Chicago, Gary, etc. One thing I have learned about the hood, is it can be very tough to figure out who is good and who is bad. The good guys and bad guys dress the same way, drive the same cars, and stroll around with their shifty eyes the same way. The reason for this other than popular lifestyle and fashion, is mostly for the purpose of blending in. Looking "normal" very well could make you an easy target. If you are going to go into the hood, you have to at least make it look like you belong there. And you may be suprised to find that alot of the "suspicious" people are just watching their *** like you are. If you start obviously checking everyone out, it may make you look like the shadster. Anyway, being aware is key...just don't let it make you paranoid. Be aware, be cool, and take care of your business.......but always be prepared to deal with a threat.

 

[Militarypol21]

I look at it as this, if you have nothing to hide why are you so worried about it? Cops profile left and right... its part of their job and it's also human nature. I profile all the time, “That person must be rich since they drive a nice car”, “That person must not own a car because they are walking and its 10 degrees outside”. What mercop is saying is "one thing leads to another". Am I going to follow 90-year-old grandma around as she heads to the grocery store or am I going to watch the two males driving an old beat up car circling the neighborhood for the 5th time in the last hour? More than once it will turn out to be nothing more than a couple guys taking a joyride on a nice day, but every now and then it leads to a felony arrest and it quite possibly stopped them from committing any further crimes. I’ve brought this up in a previous post, so to repeat… Just because there are 2 males in a vehicle together, or the female is driving the male around doesn’t mean you are going to get pulled over. The officer will wait for a traffic violation. If you don’t commit a traffic violation you wont be pulled over “plain and simple”.

I also like to put it into a different perspective for instance…
I walk into the gas station off of US36 every singe Friday night to buy a scratch off lottery ticket. 95% of the time I end up winning something (whether it be a small amount or a large amount) 5% of the time I don’t win anything at all. Now, am I going to waste my time going to a different gas station when my odds of winning are pretty good at this one? The same goes for making traffic stops. A majority of the time when mercop pulls over 2 male subjects he gets a felony arrest so why would he waste his time following grandma to the grocery store?


Many of you on here are against cops and believe profiling is completely wrong (which is fine don't get me wrong) but I highly doubt you’re going to ignore a group of guys standing next to your Ferrari at 2 in the morning (in reality they are just talking and not doing anything wrong).

Hypothetical... who would you be more concerned about walking up behind you... a 90 year old with a walker or a teenager with a hooded sweatshirt. Either one has the capability of pulling a gun and shooting you in the back.

Just my .

 

[Militarypol21]

I'm actually VERY offended by most of the OP. For example, when I'm home my wife drives. I drive over 4000 miles a week and the last thing I'm going to do is drive when I'm not working. My car is a 4x4 suv that clearly belongs to a man, the wife likes to drive it because she feels safer in it with our children, while her car is a saturn that clearly belongs to a woman. When she has my car and I need to go somewhere, I drive hers. Also, it is not a crime to LOOK for women, drugs or booze. The only crime that is even a possibility is if they FIND the drugs. In fact when I buy booze, I usually DRIVE to the liquor store and sometimes even bring a friend, sometimes my friend is even drunk but since I'm driving it doesn't matter.

Nothing against you and/or your post. That is your opinion. But... isn't that considered profiling? (Men drive big trucks / Women drive small cars)

 

[mercop]

I guess the FBI should not have a profiling division?

The thing is that everyone profiles based on life experiences. The difference between police and others is that they get to act on it. Let me explain how it works. When you start out on the street you learn the ropes and do different things that produce different outcomes. When you keep getting the same outcome from acting on the same things over and over you develop not a physical profile but rather learn to profile behaviors and make very accurate predictions. This is done by looking at clues that happened leading to the outcome and learning to see them earlier and earlier. - George

 

[JetGirl]

if you have nothing to hide why are you so worried about it?

Now that sounds like a classic "mind if I come into your home" follow up line.
FTR, I have nothing to hide and nothing to worry about...but the answer is still "Yes. I mind."

 

[groovatron]

Now that sounds like a classic "mind if I come into your home" follow up line.
FTR, I have nothing to hide and nothing to worry about...but the answer is still "Yes. I mind."

 

[flagtag]

That "If you have nothing to hide" line really irks me! And it wouldn't work with me.
My answer: "I have nothing to hide and you will find that out for yourself AFTER you hand me a search warrant. Do it by the book!"

I don't like nosey people (they have no life of their own) and it ticks me off that there are some who have absolutely NO reguard for the Constitution. I will never support the trashing of the Constitution in any way. Work WITH it, or don't bother me.

 

[Eddie]

Not meaning to state the obvious, but everyone profiles. It's just that we all don't have to interact with those we keep an eye on.

This is a very astute observation and one that everyone can use to their advantage. Everybody profiles. In other words, everybody tends to make assumptions about people based on what they observe. Use this. How do you want to be perceived? Is your goal to intimidate or to pacify? Do you want to blend in or stand out?

In my own experience as a LEO I felt that we mostly caught only the dumbest criminals, the ones who drew attention to themselves, the ones who stood out. It always frightened me to think of the really smart ones that must be out there who were adept at avoiding detection.

As a non-Leo, Lee Ermey is correct in his post above, I no longer have to approach dangerous looking people, but I do think about dangerous people approaching me. How do you carry yourself? How do you walk? How do do you talk? The image you are projecting can be your first line of defense. If I'm staring at my shoes with my hands in my pockets what does that say to a potential assailant as opposed to me throwing back my shoulders and making eye contact?

Use this. If you need help do you want to appear threatening? If you are in a bad neighborhood do you want to appear weak? This is as much a part of tactical thinking as deciding what sort of weapon to carry. Be aware of the image that you are projecting and be willing to manipulate that image to suit your purposes.

 

[mercop]

You guys got me, I will be back later, I have polish my jack boots.

 

[MTC]

Funny how people want to post about a new, gun, holster, whatever and ask other people what they think. But then when you start talking about the reasons why we carry people get all ancy in their pancy.

This stuff was not posted to provoke academic detached chin rubbing...

You guys got me, I will be back later, I have polish my jack boots.

Dude-er, I mean Sir, you're an absolute riot! I gotta get up there for a course.

 

[Turn Key]

I just Rep'ed mercop for his OP

I've read enough on the 'profiling' topic for now, although awhile back most non law enforcement friends I had would call profiling "stereotyping" .

As far as traffic stops go, I remember a friend telling me that he'd been trained to "extend the olive branch of peace", but to have a plan ready to kill everyone in the vehicle.

TK

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Nothing against you and/or your post. That is your opinion. But... isn't that considered profiling? (Men drive big trucks / Women drive small cars)

No, my SUV obviously belongs to a man because of a sticker I have on it, not because it is a truck. Her saturn is obviously a womans car because of the crap she has on the window, not because it is a small car.

Additionally, I don't care if you "profile" just to watch and be alert, but the fact is that MOST LEOs can't draw the line there. It generally leads to a nefarious stop that wouldn't normally be made, with some trumped up reason in the hopes that 1 out of 100 MAY lead to a bust of some sort due to an expired license, joint in the ashtray or whatever. Sure that one was a good stop, but the other 99 were nothing short of harassing the public. This NAZI SS tactic of just stopping anyone that looks different and asking for papers or proof that you belong there is pure BS. It is abuse of power. It is also not the job of the police to protect you and me.

It is not the duty of the police to protect you. Their job is to protect the Corporation and arrest code breakers. Sapp v. Tallahasee, 348 So. 2nd. 363, Reiff v. City of Philadelphia, 477 F.Supp. 1262, Lynch v. N.C. Dept of Justice 376 S.E. 2nd. 247.

 

[mercop]

We went from traffic stops to Nazi SS. The supreme court has held that it is lawful to use an articulitable law to stop a vehicle that drew your attention by doing something that in and of itself was not illegal. You need to know the laws of the game, and most good guys and bad guys do not.

Example- just like someone who hunts may have favorite stands I had them for stalking bad guys. In the one location I used I would see a car that I "liked" and pull behind it. I tried to conduct my stop on a specific bridge that was an overpass. The reason was that lots of people run and on this bridge there was nowhere to go. If they were "dirty" they would pull to the Exxon at the bottom of the bridge or the WaWa about a block away. Experience taught me that about 90%+ of the time they would be at least suspend, and usually wanted on warrants or worse.

The reason the stopped so fast is that they wanted to separate themselves from the vehicle either because it was stolen, or they were suspended. I would park my car and engage them in a conversation outside the store. It would go something like this-

"Hi, my name is Officer Matheis, you may have noticed me following you, we have a lot of illegal activity in this area and I was wondering if you had any identification" About 90% of the time they would say "I don't have any". I would say "no worries, would you give me your name and date of birth". They would usually like with a fake name and or fake date of birth. After a few minutes they would come clean and I would find out they were suspended, and or wanted. If they were either, I had to impound the car, and when you impound the vehicle you have to inventory it. This is where I would get my dope and guns.

The first few times in my career it went to court and the attorney (who always think they are smarter than the police, but have no real idea how 4th amendment actually applies to the street) would say I had no probable cause for the stop. Then the assistant states attorney who loved me would say "I agree, that is why there was no stop" "the officer never turned his lights on, never told the defendant that he could not leave, never blocked his way" Then the attorney will say "he had no right to ask my client for his drivers license without having probable cause for the stop" The ASA would say "I agree, that is why he asked him for identification, and not his drivers license" Then the ASA would get a poopy face and submit. See the thing is that the criminals and cops are playing the game, the lawyers only get the highlight reals.

During 1000's of stops I only ever had one person tell me "fu" and refuse to talk to me. He did and I we parted our ways, no hard feelings.

This his how police work is done. During the course of your day you are around all kinds of people with open warrants, who are suspended, who are missing persons. Who have extensive criminal records. Police see the world though a different lens than the rest of the citizenry does.

I am not the type to stick up for a cop because he is a cop, I am also not the type to bash him because he is a cop. Like in a court case I need the totality of circumstances to make a decision. I suggest everyone use the same standard.- George

 

[Greatestsin]

Refering back to the OP, since my blazer got repo'd i'm usually seen driving a mustang with betty boop license plate surround that says beep if you boop. Guess I fit your category

 

[ThrottleJockey]

YouTube - The RIGHT Way to Handle a Police Stop

 

[Eddie]

The supreme court has held that it is lawful to use an articulitable law to stop a vehicle that drew your attention by doing something that in and of itself was not illegal.

This is called articulated circumstances. Articulated literally means "connected by a joint". Good cops connect bits of seemingly unrelated information in their minds and develop hunches. The hunch is really just the logical conclusion achieved by assembling those bits of data. Truly great cops master the art of writing all of those facts down in their reports after the action is over so that the dumb attorneys can understand why they did what they did and explain it to the judge/jury.