The US military needs something more accurate, lethal and reliable than the M4

[Vince49]

Garryowen Chief!!!

There was a couple of them still in the 1/7 when I was there in the '90's...
Quick little buggers...

Garryowen! And yes they are,Thank God! Otherwise this reporter would be in the company of our departed Brothers!

 

[jeremy]

You would look like a better man.

Careful there my good man, there are several of us CAV Troopers around here you may offend one of us...

 

[jeremy]

Garryowen! And yes they are,Thank God! Otherwise this reporter would be in the company of our departed Brothers!

I always wanted to ride the Skids out on one of those until the CW4 that flew her gave me a ride in it...

I thought that was not such a bright idea...

 

[Vince49]

Still hate walking!

Beats riding out on the rocket pod of a AH-1G which I did after one er,... unfortunate incident! On the other hand it sure beat WALKING! Especially as we had just spent the better part of the day really irritating the locals.

 

[jeremy]

Beats riding out on the rocket pod of a AH-1G which I did after one er,... unfortunate incident! On the other hand it sure beat WALKING!

I think I would rather walk...

 

[Vince49]

Battalion .....March!

I think I would rather walk...

Read my edited last line from the last post. I mean we had spent the better part of the day REALLY,REALLY irritating the locals! I don't think walking in anything less than a Battalion formation was a real viable option.

 

[jeremy]

Read my edited last line from the last post. I mean we had spent the better part of the day REALLY,REALLY irritating the locals! I don't think walking in anything less than a Battalion formation was a real viable option.

Understood...
Sounds like a good challenge to me. PO all the locals and fight your way to the next supply drop all the way home.
But there is a reason why I was a grunt for a While...
I am overly stupid that way...

 

[Vince49]

The Army IS the Infantry.

Understood...
Sounds like a good challenge to me. PO all the locals and fight your way to the next supply drop all the way home.
But there is a reason why I was a grunt for a While...
I am overly stupid that way...

Not stupid at all. You are the reason the rest of us were out there. Anyone in the military that is not a grunt exists merely to support him. All else is BS.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Garryowen Chief!!!

There was a couple of them still in the 1/7 when I was there in the '90's...
Quick little buggers...

We only had Kiowas when I was with 4/7 Cav in Korea and the 3/5 Cav at Ft. Lewis in the 70s. When a "development team" from Bell came around in the late 70s asking us what we wanted in a new Scout helicopter, we started out "It should have an egg-shaped body, 4 short main rotor blades..." They got pissed, as we were pretty sure they would...

 

[jeremy]

Not stupid at all. You are the reason the rest of us were out there. Anyone in the military that is not a grunt exists merely to support him. All else is BS.

Exactly!
Sadly at almost 40 I am no longer a Grunt, I am a Mechanic now...
Sigh....
Sometimes I miss the Ol' Days, feeling a ruck dig into your shoulders, the endless throb in your feet, the weeks without showers, the days without meals....
You know what it really sucked being a Grunt, God I am glad I am a POG now...

 

[Vince49]

Exactly!
Sadly at almost 40 I am no longer a Grunt, I am a Mechanic now...
Sigh....
Sometimes I miss the Ol' Days, feeling a ruck dig into your shoulders, the endless throb in your feet, the weeks without showers, the days without meals....
You know what it really sucked being a Grunt, God I am glad I am a POG now...

At 62 they will be sending the women and kids in before they call me again! Getting old is H..., but beats the alternative I guess.

 

[jeremy]

We only had Kiowas when I was with 4/7 Cav in Korea and the 3/5 Cav at Ft. Lewis in the 70s. When a "development team" from Bell came around in the late 70s asking us what we wanted in a new Scout helicopter, we started out "It should have an egg-shaped body, 4 short main rotor blades..." They got pissed, as we were pretty sure they would...

The CW4 that ran the Scout Troop in 1/7 forced the Division to keep a couple of them around. I think they finally got washed out with the last of the Hueys we had around '98 - '00...

 

[jeremy]

At 62 they will be sending the women and kids in before they call me again! Getting old is H..., but beats the alternative I guess.

Definitely!

Although I have been told that the streets in Heaven are paved in Gold and that every Meal is a Feast...

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Not going to Happen anytime soon. It will be SEVERAL Years Possibly Decades before it would be in the Budget for that type of changeover...

The only way it will go faster is if you can get the Politics out of the Military Budget...

You've gotta be kidding me. You can't even get military politics out of procurement. We have, historically, made more dumb choices in weaponry because of "Not Invented Here" syndrome than for any other reason. Read some histories about the "competitions" which resulted in the adoption of the M-14, M-16, M-60, M-2 - hell, all the way back to the Gatling Gun. Someone always has an axe to grind or a pet project to protect.

I totally disagree with Jeremy's statements that the Garand and the M-14 were "crap" - the Garand was certainly the best battle rifle of WWII. Consider, though, that the battles being fought in the ETO were primarily fought at distances that favored the traditional .30ish caliber rifle cartridge. The jungle fighting in the Pacific seemed to be fought with many more M-1 Carbines and submachine guns, because the engagement ranges were shorter.

For a long time, the Army didn't concentrate on individual soldier marksmanship either in Basic Training or in Annual Requalification - and they still don't for that matter - but they are finally getting back to the point, due to engagement ranges in Afghanistan, hence the new emphasis on "Designated Marksman"-ship and the development of an improved rifle to get out to the engagement distances that were routine for the .30 round.

I'm not certain what prompted NATO to move from a full-power rifle cartridge to an intermediate cartridge. Was it the StG44? Was it the AK-47? I surmise that the previous level of military marksmanship extant at the time of the adoption of the M-16 may have led some military decision-makers to think that a smaller cartridge would be equally effective at expected engagement distances equal to WWII, but I suspect they were just thinking that Vietnam's engagement distances were short enough that a smaller cartridge wouldn't make any difference and that soldiers would be able to carry more ammo for a given weight.

I will say that our Cav Troop's Recon Platoon Sergeant, an old SFer of VietNam vintage, attempted to get his platoon outfitted with the M-14s issued to our Korean compound guard force because of the increased engagement range available.

 

[IndianaGTI]

You already said the Rifle weighs 12 lbs.
300 rounds in mags weighs in at around another 16 lbs. We are at 28 lbs of gear and have yet to speak of Armor, Water, Clothing, Food, etc...

An M4 weighs in at around 6 lbs, 7 mags for a 210 round payload is 7 lbs. For a combined total of 13 pounds...

So for the toll which would you want to hump across broken terrain all day?!

Why are you comparing 300 rounds of 7.62x51 to 210 rounds of 5.56x45?

Is it because 210 of 5.56 are as deadly as 300 rounds of 7.62??

 

[jeremy]

Why are you comparing 300 rounds of 7.62x51 to 210 rounds of 5.56x45?

Is it because 210 of 5.56 are as deadly as 300 rounds of 7.62??

Nah, typo, because my head was still wrapped around converting the known weight of 300 rounds of linked down into 210 rounds of mag...

I'll make the correction shortly...

 

[jeremy]

You've gotta be kidding me. You can't even get military politics out of procurement. We have, historically, made more dumb choices in weaponry because of "Not Invented Here" syndrome than for any other reason. Read some histories about the "competitions" which resulted in the adoption of the M-14, M-16, M-60, M-2 - hell, all the way back to the Gatling Gun. Someone always has an axe to grind or a pet project to protect.

I know we are screwed...
Sigh...

I totally disagree with Jeremy's statements that the Garand and the M-14 were "crap" - the Garand was certainly the best battle rifle of WWII. Consider, though, that the battles being fought in the ETO were primarily fought at distances that favored the traditional .30ish caliber rifle cartridge. The jungle fighting in the Pacific seemed to be fought with many more M-1 Carbines and submachine guns, because the engagement ranges were shorter.

For a long time, the Army didn't concentrate on individual soldier marksmanship either in Basic Training or in Annual Requalification - and they still don't for that matter - but they are finally getting back to the point, due to engagement ranges in Afghanistan, hence the new emphasis on "Designated Marksman"-ship and the development of an improved rifle to get out to the engagement distances that were routine for the .30 round.

I'm not certain what prompted NATO to move from a full-power rifle cartridge to an intermediate cartridge. Was it the StG44? Was it the AK-47? I surmise that the previous level of military marksmanship extant at the time of the adoption of the M-16 may have led some military decision-makers to think that a smaller cartridge would be equally effective at expected engagement distances equal to WWII, but I suspect they were just thinking that Vietnam's engagement distances were short enough that a smaller cartridge wouldn't make any difference and that soldiers would be able to carry more ammo for a given weight.

I will say that our Cav Troop's Recon Platoon Sergeant, an old SFer of VietNam vintage, attempted to get his platoon outfitted with the M-14s issued to our Korean compound guard force because of the increased engagement range available.

70 years ago the Garand was something. It was a very well designed Battle Rifle of it's era.
Today?!
Not so much.

The M-14 abortion is part of that Politics in Procurement Nightmare we all know is a pain in Our collective tails. The FAL actually won the Trails for that Generations Rifle. Imagine were we would be today if we would have took the step to the FAL instead of the M-14...

 

[22lr]

Imagine were we would be today if we would have took the step to the FAL instead of the M-14...

Sorry I cant even imagine a world full of that much win!

 

[Socomike]

My regular M4 and Crane Mk18 both put down the bad guys if I could do my part. I could tell no discernable difference when hitting the bad guys from 250 meters with the 5.56 or from a SDM M14. Both times they fell squirmed and died before their buddies could carry them off.

I think the M4/M16 is fine for years to come.

 

[Shooter1]

My best friend is at MARSOC, they use M4's, with 77gr SMKs. 14.5" barrels Heavy M4 profile, free floated, and Surefire suppressors "they are nice guns". They have had SCARS drop mags out of there guns when they get hot I guess cause the lower. I really like the 77gr match kings War Legal to. Get rid of the green tip crap with the steel tip.