The two biggest problems with using a knife for personal protection

[mercop]

The thing that pisses me off with all the knife fighting BS out there is that they continually to ignore the two biggest issues when it comes to using a knife for personal protection.

#1 Defining for the student exactly what situations would actually cause them to draw their knife. In firearms this shoot/don't shoot training. A knife is deadly force option, so if my understanding of use of force is correct you would have to be defending against deadly force. Lets look at a few possible scenarios. They all start with your knife in your pocket.

A) You are attacked open handed, at least in my eyes this is not justification to produce your knife.
B) You are attacked with an impact weapon. Even a short impact weapon like a tire iron is going to give your attacker the advantage of distance. If you manage to identify the threat and get your knife out and attempt a cut or a stab, it is likely to be much less effective then their blow to your skull.
C) They have a knife, this really all comes down to range, but this is the one that so many people like to train for and proclaim knife fighting prowess.
D) They have a gun, and if they are holding it on your and not shooting, you going for your knife and then attempting to close distance will likely get you shot.
E) You are attacked by more than one person, but none of them are armed. The law is on your side if you pull the knife. If you manage to single one out and cut or stab him and the others can see they will likely be inclined to leave. But it is more likely that they will rush you not seeing the knife. The knife requires motion to be effective, and once they are on top of you it will be hard to create that motion.

While working the street I made it habit during all walk up contacts to have my closed ASP in my hand. I would have rather carried a straight stick but we were not allowed. With a flick of the wrist I had what I believe is the best tool to deal with spontaneous open hand, edged weapon, or impact weapon attacks. If the threat,time and opportunity allowed I practiced dropping my baton and in the same motion drawing my pistol.

It made sense to me to walk up using a tool that could subtly carry in my hand that gave me the most options for dealing with threats that were not obvious deadly force situations.

#2 Showing the student exactly how hard it is to deploy a knife under stress.

Just as I am not impressed by someone who can draw a pistol on the buzzer and dump a magazine into the A zone of an IDPA target, I am not impressed with someone who is fast as lightening with a knife already in their hand. The goal is decisive, defensible decision making, and the ability to get your knife out if you ever have the chance.

 

[down3green]

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So, range, and "stopping power?"


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[g00n24]

F) Commie laws forced on you by the state make it illegal to carry anything other than an edged weapon, and having something is better than nothing.

 

[jdhaines]

Speaking just about Point #2: I agree with you George. We've spent quite a bit of time in our group on accessing weapons. We do knife work a little more since I'm the only "gun guy" in the group at the moment. It's amazing how hard it is to access a gun or knife when you are fighting for real against someone determined to stop you. For us its come back around to knowing some basic fundamentals of BJJ and wrestling...then learning how to slant those basics into the situation of moving and controlling the guy to get a hand free for a weapon draw. The first multiple times I tried this I was failing miserably, staying weapon focused, taking simulated stabs to the neck but ignoring them because damnit I had to pull my gun out, etc.

Point #1 arguably takes even more thought and scenario practice work than Point #2.

F) Commie laws forced on you by the state make it illegal to carry anything other than an edged weapon, and having something is better than nothing.

One of my biggest takeaways from George's training was an impact weapon can be much better than an edged weapon at stopping a fight quickly. Lets just say I switched my flashlight from a small one with sharpened strike bezels to a 2-CR123 sized light with a heavy flat head capable of generating lots of force. I often times carry a SAP now as well. Honestly, if I knew I had to get in a fight inside 5 feet and I could only choose one weapon...my order would be as follows even though it goes against the "normal" thinking. In training so far it's just seemed to work out this way. A slash on the arm or body can't stop a fight like smashing someone's elbow, collarbone, or bridge of the nose can.

1) 12oz SAP with pinky strap
2) Small knife I could use in reverse edge style (point up or point down...I like both)
3) Gun

 

[djjdnap]

I like to keep a small bottle of carb cleaner in my pocket..

spray
throw can
run



But honestly i just keep the hunting knife from harbor freight in my car, never figured i'd actually use it for anything but opening a bag of candy lol

 

[T.Lex]

A) You are attacked open handed, at least in my eyes this is not justification to produce your knife.

I hate to quibble, but this is really a (well-hidden) variation of the CC/OC debate.

I'm a reasonably fit forty-something year old guy of average stature. But, if some athletic twenty-something with only his hands gets aggressive with me, and I'm not carrying, I'm probably going to take the earliest opportunity to at least palm my folder. If for no other reason than it would be kinda like holding a roll of quarters in a fistfight.

"Producing" the knife, as you call it, is like OC. It doesn't mean I'm going to use it, it just means it will be easier to deploy.

Also, this whole thing is similar to the "spectrum" type analysis I do about what to carry and how to carry. It includes an assessment of potential risks, recognizing that at one end of the spectrum will be a completely surprising, completely overwhelming attack by an adversary that immediately leaves me dead (mot much I can do about that), or the other end of the spectrum where I would have plenty of notice before the attack to prepare a defensive perimeter and arm myself appropriately (like a zombie attack). Every potential attack will fit somewhere between those two "ends" of the spectrum.

So, every decision I make changes the effectiveness of any response between those two points. (Sorry for the minor thread-jack.)

 

[JoshuaRWhite]

Knives do a lot more horrific damage than guns do. But to me a knife is a last ditch effort. I carry my Taurus as my primary, my FOX spray as a secondary, and 3-4 knives in different pockets as a last ditch effort.

 

[DanO]

Good Post as usual, George!

A lot of knife instruction in the US concentrates on "dueling", a knife on knife encounter, even if they do not use the word duel. It can be beautiful, athletic and fun but holds little in the way of reality training. Real knife work is ugly and close up and decided in a few moments. It takes a lot of will to run a piece of sharp steel into another human face to face purposely targeting certain areas. It is much less impersonal than standing a few feet away and pulling a trigger. Not wrong, just different. Hesitancy reflects in an exponential way with edged weapons, both in delivery and penetration.

Most of our society views people carrying a knife as a weapon with disdain. Even if cleared criminally, you may find yourself defending your actions in civil court where it only takes the "preponderence of the evidence" (51%) to find you guilty. Hopefully you were using a 4" Mora camping knife and not a dagger with engraved skulls on the handle.


I have been fortunate enough to train with several different Filipino instructors, and I really value that time. They were all frank about one's prospects of being on either end of an edged weapon encounter and the blade's limitations. They also were teaching techniques from a wilder, less litigous society where guns were less accessible or affordable. A lot of knife encounters in the Islands would have been gun encounters if they were available. We spent time on impact weapons and blade work, but the impact weapon was stressed as the most appropriate self defence weapon in modern American society. They all liked impact weapons whether it was a walking cane, a sap or a piece of rebar.

I was originally issued a solid monadnock baton as a patrol officer in DC. When I went into investigations, I was issued a 16" ASP. IMHO it can scare a novice hoodlum with the opening sound and they hurt, but I find they are not as immediately incapacitating as a solid 28" baton or a sap. I find it is most powerful striking with the butt when it is still closed, but that gives up reach. I wish the old longer flat saps were still allowed as they had a lot "stopping power" in a small package.

Some comments on your scenairios:
A - agreed, but I would draw an impact weapon if available.
B- time to shoot someone if you have a gun. This is a deadly weapon, given time and distance to use it, so let's respond in kind with the most efficient tool.
C- same thing. Knife = shoot them, if they time and distance make it a threat.
D- See B and C
E - I hate a crowd, especially an unfriendly or uncontrolled crowd. A lot of people will point out how a blade will not run out of ammo, but it takes training to be effecitve with edged weapons in very tight confines or on the ground. You make a good point. In a group attack it may appear you are punching rather than cutting or stabbing and even your victim may initially think they have been punched.

DDJDNAP - I recently reccomended a can of bear spray to a bicyclist this summer when the mob attacks were happening in Chicago along the lake. I like having this option.

TLex - disagree with you on one issue. Their is a huge difference between OCing a pistol and drawing a knife. Drawing a knife signals intent. On an unarmed opponent you are now the only one using deadly force and declaration of " I drew it to have it ready, but wasn't going to use it" will change that. You now also have a contact weapon in your hand and most fights go to a grapple in the first 5 seconds. Not a great tactical advantage.

Goon 24 - read what the OP was really trying to convey and reason it out. If you love your knife and want to still carry it as your primary self defence tool, I hope that works out for you. There are still a lot of good tools outside of the gun and knife and it may behoove you to have some of these tools in your bag, both literally and figuratively.

 

[bwframe]

If you were invited to a knife fight, what would you take?

I think the stick is king for close it work. Sometimes it's all you can have. I need to learn to run it better.

 

[jdhaines]

If you were invited to a knife fight, what would you take?

Assuming I had to go? Probably a longer knife like a katana or something. Guns just don't do well. Look at the statistics of surviving a knife attack vs surviving a gunshot or two. I can't guarantee I'm fast enough to draw or fast enough to keep distance. If he's faster, I'm done.

 

[mercop]

All scenarios are perfect meaning it is you against someone of your own age, ability, and size. Consider this a laboratory for use of force. Things change rabidly. - George

 

[deciple]

Either way, if you're surprise attacked by a knife it matters very little whether it is a gun or a knife you're carrying. I never really thought to use a knife as self defense, just never seemed like a good idea from a real world scenario stand point. If I saw a man with a knife running at me, depending on his distance, I would more than like take steps back as I draw my handgun increasing distance slightly in my favor, there is no doubt in my mind that there is no way that I could deploy my folder faster than my holstered weapon.

 

[mercop]

It's funny, in our "back to the wall culture", where do people think they are going to gain distance?

 

[Patrolman1981]

"While working the street I made it habit during all walk up contacts to have my closed ASP in my hand. I would have rather carried a straight stick but we were not allowed. With a flick of the wrist I had what I believe is the best tool to deal with spontaneous open hand, edged weapon, or impact weapon attacks. If the threat,time and opportunity allowed I practiced dropping my baton and in the same motion drawing my pistol." QUOTED FROM MERCOP

Very good habit. I am all for carring a tacticle knife at all times, however it is a last ditch weapon. Also for defense if somebody attempts to take my side arm while on duty. But you can bet your A@S if the knife comes out the situation is very bad and all other options have been exhausted.

 

[DanO]

Deciple,
I do not know your level of training, but the difference ln weapon type of your attacker, distance and environment have huge effects on the engagement, or if there needs to be an engagement.

For example, your scenario of a man running at you with a knife: avoid backing straight up!! He is running and you are just beginning to react. Better to move at a right angle or even a 30 degree angle forward if possible. The running attacker will have to slow down and change course and you get his OODA loop running. Extra points if you moved to his non-weapon side.

The point is that training this stuff for real world scenarios will open your eyes to what really may work for you. Whenever I see someone respond to a given scenario: "Well, I would just do such and such!", I get suspicious. Real world scenarios have nuance and complexities. Now when the response to a scenario is a string of pertinent questions, then I start to think that person has some training or real world experience.

 

[cedartop]

Deciple,
I do not know your level of training, but the difference ln weapon type of your attacker, distance and environment have huge effect ts on the engagement or if there needs to be an engagement.

For example, your scenario of a man running at you with a knife: avoid backing straight up!! He is running and you are just beginning.to react. Better to move at a right angle or even a 30 degree angle forward if possible. The running attacker will have to slow down and change course and you get his OODA loop running. Extra points if you moved to his non-weapon side.

The point is that training this stuff for real world scenarios will open your eyes to what really may work for you. Whenever I see someone respond to a given scenario:: "Well, I would just do such and such" I get suspicious. Real world.scenarios have nuanced and complexities. Now when the response to a.scenario is a string of.pertinent questions, then I start to think that person has some training or real .world experience.

Good post, you beat me to it, and were nicer about it than me.

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

I have 3 herniated discs, and lots of sciatic fun. Can't always move too much or too fast. I'm still strong, though. Not gonna stop carrying the .45, nor the balisong. I can have either on point in a couple of seconds, but my limitations factor into my decisions. And man, I blinded myself with carburetor cleaner once, that's not a bad idea, there.

 

[bwframe]

He is running and you are just beginning.to react. Better to move at a right angle or even a 30 degree angle forward if possible. The running attacker will have to slow down and change course and you get his OODA loop running. Extra points if you moved to his non-weapon side.

You always have to call it as you see it, but we train to go strong side. It's human nature to turn to the weak side, not so much to turn to the strong side. It rattles the attacker in numerous ways and puts you in position to control the weapon arm (or cut it off,) if they make it to you.

 

[DanO]

BWframe - I see what you are saying and train the same way for some situations.

The way I saw this scenario was a man running at him with a knife and he is just beginning to process and react. Stepping to the "weak side" would give him the best chance to avoid the blade as he deploys his own weapons or runs, since it makes the attacker slow even more or take a tighter turn to deliver the contact weapon across his body. But combat is a dynamic undertaking.....

 

[threefiftyfour]

You guys are something else. It frightens me how under-prepared I am for, well life. You guys have thought through situations that I have never even considered. Keep posting ideas like this, so us noobs can learn.