The two biggest problems with using a knife for personal protection

[bwframe]

You guys are something else. It frightens me how under-prepared I am for, well life. You guys have thought through situations that I have never even considered. Keep posting ideas like this, so us noobs can learn.

George forces the thinking. It's his fault...

 

[Alamo]

Interesting topic, to me anyway. I suppose of a Pennsylvania cop can post here, a citizen of Texas can also? I was born a Hoosier, if that helps.

In any case, I started learning to deal with knives a little over a year ago, in Oct 2010 to be more precise. Pretty much every Saturday morning finds me practicing with a training group in Austin, and the period has been punctuated with some formal seminars from Tom Sotis and Mark Human.

Along the way with learning to defend against knives, it makes sense to learn to fight with one as well, to see both sides of the issue, and it helps to see why certain defenses do or don't work. In doing so, I have come to appreciate some advantages and disadvantages of using a knife to legally defend myself.

So some comments. This is not a "refutation" of anything Mercop has said, this is just some observations and thoughts I have developed over my limited but fairly regular training sessions. I might very well be wrong about some things, but at this stage of the game, this is what I think I know.

I am going to loosely organize my comments around his original post, but not in exactly the same order.

In fact, I am going to start with is comment about the ASP/club being a best tool. That's a very interesting thought, but...not very useful to me. Texas has some very peculiar weapons law, one of which makes it a Class A Misdemeanor for a non-LEO to carry a club (I can own it, but can't carry it in public). If I happen to be standing in an establishment that sells alcohol, then it is a felony. So clubs are out for me. Perhaps Indiana law is different? Hoosierdom certainly has better firearms law, in general.

In Texas, knives, under a certain blade length (5.5") and avoiding certain configurations (e.g. switchblade, dagger, balisong), are legal however, and legal for people who do not have a Concealed Handgun License. So it makes some legal sense as a defense option. Certainly beats spitballs.

Accessing the knife: We spend some time in practice drilling this; in fact, most of our scenario/drills are not ended until someone can at least access the knife (or training gun).

But more importantly, perhaps, we find out pretty quickly in these drills that if you focus on accessing your weapon too early, you are going to get shanked about twelve times. Yeah you may shoot or stab your attacker with your dying breath, but....

The first order of business is to deal with whatever the attack is, and create the opportunity to get away, with or without shooting/stabbing/clubbing the attacker. After all, the end go is to GO HOME relatively safe, (preferably without a trip thru the ER); dispatching the thug(s) that attacked me is great, but not necessarily required.

As a guy who carries a pistol everywhere I can, what I see as the most likely scenario where I will use a knife in defense is this: the incident that starts as a in-your(my) face-bad-breath-distance-attack with knife, pistol, or impact weapon, and it occurs in some setting where breaking away and creating distance is not possible. For example, an elevator, vestibule of a store, between parked cars, my family is with me and I can't leave -- or maybe the clown just has a gorilla-grip on me somehow and I can't break free. Or we end up on the ground. These seem to be likely scenarios.

Having practiced using and defending against both knife and gun at grappling range, the knife seems to me both harder to defend against and easier for the wielder to use. At contact distance a gun is just easier to grab, disarm, or disable than a sharp blade, and the blade can deliver a lot of fairly disabling injuries in all kinds of directions.

So if I have a choice (and I have also, however temporarily, dealt with the problem of my attacker's weapon), I am going to try to access one of my two knives (or my ballpoint pen, or whatever else is handy) and stab/slash the bejabbers out of my attacker until he convinces me he is no longer a threat, or I can transition to an escape, or gain distance and draw my pistol.

I can think of (at least) one other case where I might draw the knife rather than the gun, and that is where I want a weapon in my hand but I don't want anyone else to know it. It is easier to palm my knife and keep it hidden than do so with my semi-auto pistol.

So in short, the primary situation where I see a knife being used for self-defense is a contact distance deadly force scenario where I have already dealt with, however temporarily, the attacker's weapon (not a trivial task in itself).

Another comment: about backing up to create distance -- our practice sessions have supported what Dano said -- avoid it. It is natural to do so, but there are very few people who can run faster backwards than others can run forward. I know of two -- they are both very young athletic skinny guys who are all-around faster than lightning. I am none of those things! Yet even I (playing the aggressor role) ran down a backpedaling 20 year old Army trooper, pinned his (blue) gun to his belly when he tried to access it, and stabbed the snot out of him. We practice at least moving sideways, and if possible moving past our opponent to end up in to his rear. This opens up a lot more possibilities.

As far as avoiding the attacker's weapon (knife or club); we generally try to end up on the outside of the arm holding the weapon -- the strong side -- rather than the weak side. Altho the weak side is a little farther away, it seems to me it puts me in the natural "kill zone." For example. a right handed person usually find is it much easer to move/stab/slash to the left than to the right, and the right arm is more maneuverable moving towards the left. If I can get "outside" of my attacker's strong arm, and especially if I can get my hand on his elbow region, I can avoid the knife and exert some control for long enough to either get out of dodge or counter in some manner.

OK, that seems enough for now. As I tried to day earlier, these are not meant to be pronouncements from the mountain top, they are just some things I have observed while making serious effort to learn some knife defense and knife use. And while it has been "knife centric" it has turned out to be fairly applicable to open hand and close-in gun defense as well.

This area (knife defense/knife use) has been a focus of mine for awhile, and I have found Mercop's posts interesting to read, and felt like jumping in.

 

[bwframe]

Interesting topic, to me anyway. I suppose of a Pennsylvania cop can post here, a citizen of Texas can also? I was born a Hoosier, if that helps.

In any case, I started learning to deal with knives a little over a year ago, in Oct 2010 to be more precise. Pretty much every Saturday morning finds me practicing with a training group in Austin, and the period has been punctuated with some formal seminars from Tom Sotis and Mark Human.

Along the way with learning to defend against knives, it makes sense to learn to fight with one as well, to see both sides of the issue, and it helps to see why certain defenses do or don't work. In doing so, I have come to appreciate some advantages and disadvantages of using a knife to legally defend myself.

So some comments. This is not a "refutation" of anything Mercop has said, this is just some observations and thoughts I have developed over my limited but fairly regular training sessions. I might very well be wrong about some things, but at this stage of the game, this is what I think I know.

I am going to loosely organize my comments around his original post, but not in exactly the same order.

In fact, I am going to start with is comment about the ASP/club being a best tool. That's a very interesting thought, but...not very useful to me. Texas has some very peculiar weapons law, one of which makes it a Class A Misdemeanor for a non-LEO to carry a club (I can own it, but can't carry it in public). If I happen to be standing in an establishment that sells alcohol, then it is a felony. So clubs are out for me. Perhaps Indiana law is different? Hoosierdom certainly has better firearms law, in general.

In Texas, knives, under a certain blade length (5.5") and avoiding certain configurations (e.g. switchblade, dagger, balisong), are legal however, and legal for people who do not have a Concealed Handgun License. So it makes some legal sense as a defense option. Certainly beats spitballs.

Accessing the knife: We spend some time in practice drilling this; in fact, most of our scenario/drills are not ended until someone can at least access the knife (or training gun).

But more importantly, perhaps, we find out pretty quickly in these drills that if you focus on accessing your weapon too early, you are going to get shanked about twelve times. Yeah you may shoot or stab your attacker with your dying breath, but....

The first order of business is to deal with whatever the attack is, and create the opportunity to get away, with or without shooting/stabbing/clubbing the attacker. After all, the end go is to GO HOME relatively safe, (preferably without a trip thru the ER); dispatching the thug(s) that attacked me is great, but not necessarily required.

As a guy who carries a pistol everywhere I can, what I see as the most likely scenario where I will use a knife in defense is this: the incident that starts as a in-your(my) face-bad-breath-distance-attack with knife, pistol, or impact weapon, and it occurs in some setting where breaking away and creating distance is not possible. For example, an elevator, vestibule of a store, between parked cars, my family is with me and I can't leave -- or maybe the clown just has a gorilla-grip on me somehow and I can't break free. Or we end up on the ground. These seem to be likely scenarios.

Having practiced using and defending against both knife and gun at grappling range, the knife seems to me both harder to defend against and easier for the wielder to use. At contact distance a gun is just easier to grab, disarm, or disable than a sharp blade, and the blade can deliver a lot of fairly disabling injuries in all kinds of directions.

So if I have a choice (and I have also, however temporarily, dealt with the problem of my attacker's weapon), I am going to try to access one of my two knives (or my ballpoint pen, or whatever else is handy) and stab/slash the bejabbers out of my attacker until he convinces me he is no longer a threat, or I can transition to an escape, or gain distance and draw my pistol.

I can think of (at least) one other case where I might draw the knife rather than the gun, and that is where I want a weapon in my hand but I don't want anyone else to know it. It is easier to palm my knife and keep it hidden than do so with my semi-auto pistol.

So in short, the primary situation where I see a knife being used for self-defense is a contact distance deadly force scenario where I have already dealt with, however temporarily, the attacker's weapon (not a trivial task in itself).

Another comment: about backing up to create distance -- our practice sessions have supported what Dano said -- avoid it. It is natural to do so, but there are very few people who can run faster backwards than others can run forward. I know of two -- they are both very young athletic skinny guys who are all-around faster than lightning. I am none of those things! Yet even I (playing the aggressor role) ran down a backpedaling 20 year old Army trooper, pinned his (blue) gun to his belly when he tried to access it, and stabbed the snot out of him. We practice at least moving sideways, and if possible moving past our opponent to end up in to his rear. This opens up a lot more possibilities.

As far as avoiding the attacker's weapon (knife or club); we generally try to end up on the outside of the arm holding the weapon -- the strong side -- rather than the weak side. Altho the weak side is a little farther away, it seems to me it puts me in the natural "kill zone." For example. a right handed person usually find is it much easer to move/stab/slash to the left than to the right, and the right arm is more maneuverable moving towards the left. If I can get "outside" of my attacker's strong arm, and especially if I can get my hand on his elbow region, I can avoid the knife and exert some control for long enough to either get out of dodge or counter in some manner.

OK, that seems enough for now. As I tried to day earlier, these are not meant to be pronouncements from the mountain top, they are just some things I have observed while making serious effort to learn some knife defense and knife use. And while it has been "knife centric" it has turned out to be fairly applicable to open hand and close-in gun defense as well.

This area (knife defense/knife use) has been a focus of mine for awhile, and I have found Mercop's posts interesting to read, and felt like jumping in.

Great post!

Would a cane be an answer to that peculiar Texas club law?

 

[Alamo]

Great post!

Would a cane be an answer to that peculiar Texas club law?

Odd,you read my mind...

 

[DragonGunner]

Hmmm....so...If some thug attacks me with bare hands an I'm in fear for my life, an stab him.....thats unlawful??? But if I shoot him I'm legal. Correct?

 

[jdhaines]

But more importantly, perhaps, we find out pretty quickly in these drills that if you focus on accessing your weapon too early, you are going to get shanked about twelve times. Yeah you may shoot or stab your attacker with your dying breath, but....

The first order of business is to deal with whatever the attack is, and create the opportunity to get away, with or without shooting/stabbing/clubbing the attacker. After all, the end go is to GO HOME relatively safe, (preferably without a trip thru the ER); dispatching the thug(s) that attacked me is great, but not necessarily required.

This idea, for me, has been the biggest eye opening FACT since I've begun working some of these problems. I've seen it driven home by Mercop in his way, Shivworks in their classes, SI via discussion as well as the DVDs Die Less Often, and many other places. You have to be prepared to deal with the attack prior to accessing your weapon. You can't expect to be successful if you are trying to draw your gun while someone else is sticking their sharp utensil in you repeatedly. This drives to the heart of the issue on learning some combatives, even if you never want to be a "fighter" or "UFC guy". Great post.

Hmmm....so...If some thug attacks me with bare hands an I'm in fear for my life, an stab him.....thats unlawful??? But if I shoot him I'm legal. Correct?

Don't think so much about the tool used. Think about the situation. It's good for you if you can show you were in fear for your life. If it's 1v1, is there something that would show the jury that you couldn't reasonably be expected to defend yourself against this "thug?" If it's 2v1, that disparity helps you even more. The trick is knowing when you can use lethal force and meet all of the criteria required. Masaad Ayoob has some highly respected thoughts along these lines in his videos and books.

It would be hard to argue that successfully defending yourself with a machete in a really messy manner wouldn't look worse to the jury than using a small pistol. But in the heat of the moment, that's really neither here nor there. Use what you have. You have to justify the act, not the tool.

 

[mercop]

Now that I am retired I don't carry the ASP. But I do carry a Novatac Classic which is about the same size as my ASP collapsed. The point I was trying to get to is that you are much more likely to be able to walk around with improvised impact weapon in your hand than a gun or knife. And the good thing is that they primarily cause Central Nervous System disruption which stops a human faster than circulatory system disruption caused by penetrating injuries.- George

 

[cedartop]

Interesting topic, to me anyway. I suppose of a Pennsylvania cop can post here, a citizen of Texas can also? I was born a Hoosier, if that helps.

In any case, I started learning to deal with knives a little over a year ago, in Oct 2010 to be more precise. Pretty much every Saturday morning finds me practicing with a training group in Austin, and the period has been punctuated with some formal seminars from Tom Sotis and Mark Human.

..

AMOK! brother Alamo, good post.

 

[cbseniour]

The single biggest problem with using a knife for self defense it that knives are very much up close and personal. Much more so than point and fire.

 

[Alamo]

AMOK! brother Alamo, good post.

AMOK!

The single biggest problem with using a knife for self defense it that knives are very much up close and personal. Much more so than point and fire.

Actually, the biggest problem is you don't get much choice between up-close-and-personal and stand-off. That's what led me to learning about knife defense and combatives.

 

[Alamo]

Now that I am retired I don't carry the ASP. But I do carry a Novatac Classic which is about the same size as my ASP collapsed. The point I was trying to get to is that you are much more likely to be able to walk around with improvised impact weapon in your hand than a gun or knife. And the good thing is that they primarily cause Central Nervous System disruption which stops a human faster than circulatory system disruption caused by penetrating injuries.- George

OK, I missed the improvised part I guess; as a I said, an actual club presents some legal issues in my area, which is what came to mind.

In any case a solid flashlight would make a good discreet substitute, and having any weapon in the hand when festivities start is a plus.

And as part of our training we do in fact work on impact strikes to disrupt as part of our response to sudden up close attack, altho we have focused on empty hand strikes. I suppose this is basically because we are presuming a "civilian" situation, where if we have any heads up that an attack is imminent, we are going to create distance/escape, not go investigate.

I do have occasion to go towards sketchy situations, and as a matter of fact I do carry a flashlight since a majority of these happen at night. There are supposed to already be cops on scene to secure things, but still, it is one of the things that led me to start learning some combatives.

 

[jeremy]

The biggest problem I have had with Knife Classes (Whether Military or Civilian) has been that they fail to teach the most important thing I have learned from my limited Knife fighting experience. If you are going to Knife Fight you better be ready to be cut whether or not the other guy has a knife or you have the only one...