The President Trump Immigration Thread

[SheepDog4Life]

"Gals" with guns AND uniforms! Does it get any better? (I like strong women)

 

[SheepDog4Life]

This conversation is interesting and all--wait. No it's not.

Yeah, on rare occasions, an INGO thread stays on topic.
But now that we're on to women with guns, that'll change.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Regarding the new EO on Immigration, Senior Admin official: DAPA & expanded DACA are not affected. Both are enjoined...completely suspended. Nothing happening w/either.

 

[T.Lex]

Regarding the new EO on Immigration, Senior Admin official: DAPA & expanded DACA are not affected. Both are enjoined...completely suspended. Nothing happening w/either.

I guess that's one injunction that Trump likes.

 

[T.Lex]

"Gals" with guns ....

We need indiucky and a Tommy Shaw video.

 

[T.Lex]

@S4L

I dug out an old file with some research in it. Part of the problem was (is?) that "child" had different definitions for visa purposes and naturalization/citizenship purposes, but the distinctions were not widely understood - particularly in the case of step-parents. So, families were told by attorneys and INS even that they could enter/exit with kids without issues (well, beyond the issues involved in traveling with kids) and they took it to mean that "child" meant child of the US citizen step/adopted parent. Except that wasn't always true.

On the marriage side of the equation, there were similar issues. The expectation was that the proper marriage was enough. I'm not saying it was right; I'm just saying it happened. Back in the days before the internet was mainstream.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Trump to leave protections for 'dreamer' migrants | Reuters

 

[jamil]

I don't think you need to prosecute ALL of them... just enough of them to get the message across. A handful in each state. And, for every contractor who is enjoying "enhanced" profits using cheap, illegal labor, I'm guessing there are 4-5 others seething about losing the contracts to "cheaters". I could see this as a situation where a tip hotline or finder's fee rewards would work extremely well.



I would agree that like the drug problem, this problem also requires both supply- and demand-side solutions. I think the parallel stops there. If most drug deals occurred at 6 am in a freshly ripened fruit/vegetable orchard/field or construction site, then the vast majority of illegal drugs would be stopped.

Also, unlike the drug cartels, where the wholesale to retail mark-up on drugs is so incredible that they can absorb huge losses, not so with farmers or building contractors. What happens to a farmer relying upon illegal labor if ICE shows up the morning their crop is ripe, deports the illegal laborers and arrests the maggot shipping humans in horse trailers? How many other farmers will risk their crops rotting in the fields (and financial ruin) the next season? How big of an impact would a relatively small enforcement force, say 50 teams of 10 agents (500 total) have if they followed the agricultural migrant labor seasons? Each team doing a bust first thing in the morning, processing the deportees and arrested slave-drivers the rest of the day, then on to the next site the next morning?

Ditto construction sites, with the added benefit that there will always be losing bidders willing to inform on the illegal labor user. How long can a builder sit on a half to 3/4's finished construction site (yes, purposefully timed for the maximum "squeeze" factor), with loans outstanding, and no progress happening because of the ICE SUV parked at the construction site or developing subdivision entrance?

Ditto the commercial meat and poultry processors. Park an ICE SUV at the factory gate until the stench of rotting meat gets unbearable... then head to the next one.

These businesses do not have the margins that drug dealers have... so I think this tide turns pretty quickly on the labor demand side.

On the labor supply side, issue work permit Visas of 6-9 months duration, only issued from country of origin.

I think the biggest chunk of the problem self-corrects pretty quickly.

tl;dr: Legit businesses don't have the margins that drug cartels have. Hit them in the pocket books for using illegal labor and they'll get legal pretty quickly. This solution will require work permits because the need for labor is real. Make it "better" to use legal labor.

Enough to get the message across? I think "self-deportation" is a failure of imagination. People will figure out ways to do what they want to do. As long as things are better here than there, they'll figure out how to get here. They'll figure out how to eek a living. I'm not saying I don't want to put that dent into it. I am saying I doubt it will be as effective as the proponents think.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Enough to get the message across? I think "self-deportation" is a failure of imagination. People will figure out ways to do what they want to do. As long as things are better here than there, they'll figure out how to get here. They'll figure out how to eek a living. I'm not saying I don't want to put that dent into it. I am saying I doubt it will be as effective as the proponents think.

I think when they see the doors closing to illegal labor, while new-comers from their home countries with work permits enjoy higher pay and humane working conditions WITHOUT the ever present threat of deportation... a significant chunk of them return home to get in line for work permits. Same thing as you are saying, they see something better, large numbers will go for it.

Gibson and Posey counties have a large number (dozens if not hundreds) of watermelon and canelope growers. I've personally seen the horse trailers filled with humans headed there for peak harvest season. Pick two growers (personally I'd prioritize those who receive the most "farm welfare" money) and send ICE teams there at 6 am, peak harvest. Round up, deport and arrest. Have an ICE SUV at those two locations every morning for the next two weeks.

How many of the area farmers would risk being one of the "unlucky ones" next season?

 

[jamil]

I think when they see the doors closing to illegal labor, while new-comers from their home countries with work permits enjoy higher pay and humane working conditions WITHOUT the ever present threat of deportation... a significant chunk of them return home to get in line for work permits.

Gibson and Posey counties have a large number (dozens if not hundreds) of watermelon and canelope growers. I've personally seen the horse trailers filled with humans headed there for peak harvest season. Pick two growers (personally I'd prioritize those who receive the most "farm welfare" money) and send ICE teams there at 6 am, peak harvest. Round up, deport and arrest. Have an ICE SUV at those two locations every morning for the next two weeks.

How many of the area farmers would risk being the one of the "unlucky ones" next season?

Now this is what I'm talking about. I don't want to replace the back and forth you have going with T.Lex. If you go back and forth a couple of times while failing to converge, it's just not gonna happen. I remain unconvinced that negative incentives alone will put any appreciable dent in illegal immigration. There's not just one door to close. You're not going to close enough of them.

Probably a better way to resolve the issue is to remove the incentive to come here illegally, by making it more attractive to come here legally. It's not going to happen on the employer end. There will always be an incentive to find the cheapest labor, and there will always be people with the ingenuity to figure out a way around laws.

But on the labor side, who wouldn't want to participate in the legal market, which would pay more, and plus they don't have to look over their shoulders for ICE? I'm okay with expanding a work visa in industries where no one wants to do the work for the value of the work. I'm not okay with expanding work visas in areas where there are plenty of workers for the industry, who work for the market rates.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Spicer says new EO will NOT rescind old one. This is going to come as a surprise to the White House's lawyers, who represented to several courts that it would.

 

[T.Lex]

Spicer says new EO will NOT rescind old one. This is going to come as a surprise to the White House's lawyers, who represented to several courts that it would.

Wait.

It won't?

Does he not know what "rescind" means? Or will this be clarified to mean that the new one "supersedes" the old one. Which is totally different.

 

[actaeon277]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-after-trump-comments/?utm_term=.fc3a5b37db57

 

[rob63]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-after-trump-comments/?utm_term=.fc3a5b37db57

Apparently, Trump is just ahead of his time.

 

[jamil]

Apparently, Trump is just ahead of his time.

Obviously Trump arranged for the riot so's he could be right.

 

[T.Lex]

I literally forget that Trump doesn't need to be literal.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Poll: Americans overwhelmingly oppose sanctuary cities | TheHill

 

[Twangbanger]

Now this is what I'm talking about. I don't want to replace the back and forth you have going with T.Lex. If you go back and forth a couple of times while failing to converge, it's just not gonna happen...

I believe it's actually easy to identify the source of non-convergence on this issue, in general. Simply ask each party the following question:

"Are you willing to allow stand-alone bills for 1) "Building the Wall," and 2) Amnesty, to be brought for up-or-down votes?" Yes, or No?

Not, "what do polls say?" Not "can it pass?" (let democracy decide that). Simply: should they, individually, be brought up for vote?

Those who answer "Yes," might be trying to achieve convergence.

Those who vacillate, or insist on shacking the two issues together, almost certainly are in the other camp.

How about an INGO litmus-test? Put me down as a "yes."

 

[T.Lex]

I'm a yes.

But politically, that is VERY unlikely to happen. Both sides need the other side of the equation to try to retain their seat. Stand-alone bills would mean... taking a stand.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Just out of curiosity, with all these people being deported, and all.... I get that Mexicans are simply bussed back to Mexico, but what happens to people from other places in Latin America, Europe, Asia, and Africa? Are they given plane tickets?