The Open Carry Argument

[finity]

But seriously, there are absolute rights/wrongs. If not we live in moral relativism.

There are very, VERY few, if any, true "absolutes" in anything, including "morals".

I know this will start a threadjack but I just had to comment on that & besides that's what I'm good at.

 

[jeremy]

There are very, VERY few, if any, true "absolutes" in anything, including "morals".

I know this will start a threadjack but I just had to comment on that & besides that's what I'm good at.

Morals!!!
I like me some Morals!
Man I can barely wait for Mushroom Season next year!!!

 

[finity]

Morals!!!
I like me some Morals!
Man I can barely wait for Mushroom Season next year!!!

 

[ATM]

There are very, VERY few, if any, true "absolutes" in anything...

By golly, you're absolutely right!*




*Let's see you worm your way out of that argument.

 

[finity]

By golly, you're absolutely right!*




*Let's see you worm your way out of that argument.

Well, since there is an exception to every rule, to which I acknowledged the possibility above, I think that this would fall under one of those "VERY few" absolutes in life.

IOW, you're absolutely right - I am absolutely right.

Wait...that's another exception...

Eh, that still makes me absolutely right.

 

[jeremy]

Well, since there is an exception to every rule, to which I acknowledged the possibility above, I think that this would fall under one of those "VERY few" absolutes in life.

IOW, you're absolutely right - I am absolutely right.

Wait...that's another exception...

Eh, that still makes me absolutely right.

Hell, for that matter you could both be wrong as well...

 

[ATM]

Hell, for that matter you could both be wrong as well...

Absolutely wrong, or just mostly wrong?

 

[jeremy]

Absolutely wrong, or just mostly wrong?

Either, or maybe both, but yet possibly neither. However it could be that I am wrong as well...

 

[Syxxthkidd]

The reason I open carry:
I carry a full size 45acp and I'm not going to tuck it in my pants and be uncomfortable or wear some goofy photographers vest just to make someone else feel better about not seeing a gun.

That is a perfect response, I cant hide mine either, so open it is

 

[KG1]

I forget mine and leave it at home alot.

 

[Hoosierdood]

concealed most of the time.

You obviously did not read this thread at all because it is obvious that you do not know what it is about.

 

[MTSwegman85]

I was hurt pretty bad and its painfull to use the paddle holster so now I have a shoulder rig for my 1911. Always been cc, I have tried both but my biggest reason was always to fit in with society. When it is in view everybody seems to make a note of it or young children walk by eyes locked on my 1911. I would like to think i am someone who would be a less desireable target. That doesnt make me feel safer to cc, but it does make me feel like i dont stick out as much.

 

[finity]

Here is a slightly different take on OC'ing from the Suarez website:

WARRIOR TALK NEWS - The

I'm not anti-OC, either, but I think the article makes some pretty good points.

Just thought I'd throw this out there for discussion.

 

[iChokePeople]

Here is a slightly different take on OC'ing from the Suarez website:

WARRIOR TALK NEWS - The

I'm not anti-OC, either, but I think the article makes some pretty good points.

Just thought I'd throw this out there for discussion.

 

[protias]

Here is a slightly different take on OC'ing from the Suarez website:

WARRIOR TALK NEWS - The

I'm not anti-OC, either, but I think the article makes some pretty good points.

Just thought I'd throw this out there for discussion.

Yes, there are plenty of cases that show that people were targeted for their guns……..in their homes and on their person.

There is only ONE incident where someone was robbed of their firearm while open carrying, and that was in Milwaukee.

Man Legally Carrying Gun Robbed at Gunpoint - TODAY'S TMJ4

There was another incident where two guys (were drunk and kicked out of a bar for lighting stuff on fire in the bar) jump another open carrier in Milwaukee. He shot both, killed one, and paralyzed the other.

I guess he hasn't read the deterrence in Kennesaw, GA or of all the stories from people here in WI. One gal was carrying in her house, had the back door open, but the screen door locked. A guy was trying to open the door and as she went to ask when he was doing, he replied, "Oh, I have the wrong house." I'm sure he did when he realized he'd be shot if he entered.

Open carry deters armed robbery in Kennesaw - Atlanta gun rights | Examiner.com

 

[MTSwegman85]

Nice find on that news clip.

 

[finity]

There is only ONE incident where someone was robbed of their firearm while open carrying, and that was in Milwaukee.

Man Legally Carrying Gun Robbed at Gunpoint - TODAY'S TMJ4

There was another incident where two guys (were drunk and kicked out of a bar for lighting stuff on fire in the bar) jump another open carrier in Milwaukee. He shot both, killed one, and paralyzed the other.

Those are two instances that you have found. I'm not saying "absolutely" that there are more but chances are if you can point to these two instances then there have to be at least a few more that you don't know about.

Besides, the simple fact that it happened once (or twice according to you) means that it can happen again. The next time it happens it MAY be you (if you OC, that is).

I think that is the point he was making; that it happens. And if it does happen then why unecessarily increase your odds of it happening to you by OC'ing?

I guess he hasn't read the deterrence in Kennesaw, GA or of all the stories from people here in WI. One gal was carrying in her house, had the back door open, but the screen door locked. A guy was trying to open the door and as she went to ask when he was doing, he replied, "Oh, I have the wrong house." I'm sure he did when he realized he'd be shot if he entered.

Open carry deters armed robbery in Kennesaw - Atlanta gun rights | Examiner.com

First off, the "deterrence" in Kennesaw, GA was due to a city ordinance that every household had to own a gun, not that people had to OC so we're not really talking about EXACTLY the same thing.

I agree that the POSSIBILITY of someone having a gun is a possible deterrent. But I think that is because of the "unknown factor". The BG doesn't know if the target has a gun so they can't know how to plan their attack. If he knows there is a gun then he either attacks DUE TO the presence of the gun or changes his tactics.

He also doesn't say it's NOT a deterrent, either. He says that there is no way to know if it IS a deterrent because you can't measure the crimes that didn't happen SPECIFICALLY because of the OC'd gun (as opposed to some other non-obvious reason). And I agree with that. I also agree that it CAN be a deterrent.

We also don't know precisely how many additional crimes are committed (%-wise) because of the OC'd gun as compared to the crimes that are deterred because of the OC'd gun. We just don't have the stats one way or another.

Like he says in the article: why limit your options to get involved or not without some very clear evidence that OC'ing is a distinct benefit?

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Finity,

For me, OC or CC would not change whether or not I would be involved. Its just my personality. I stop on the side of the road to help people. I go up to people in parking lots with their hoods up to see if they are ok. I have a significant mechanical ability and often carry some sort of tool with me so I have a better chance of fixing something than most people out there driving around relying on the mercy of others.

If I saw someone being hurt or threatened I would help whether I was armed or not. I survived 23 years without needing a gun and most people don't carry and are perfectly fine living their lives that way. I carry for every reason I can think of:

1. Protection? Check

2. Education? You bet

3. Political statement? Absolutely

4. Because its cool? I think so.

5. Because its the right thing to do? IMO

I read your article, and while I don't really dissagree with him on many issues I really prefer not imputing my personal decisions into others. That being said I am not an instructor and therefore it is not my job to do so, I think that since he is he feels the ability to tell people his opinion much more freely and expect them to listen. I believe that OC IS a deterrent from the likes of people that are afraid of guns- criminals. Of course not every single one of them are but enough that I think that is a very valid reason to OC.

I also believe in teaching people their rights. Think about it- who teaches people their rights? Schools? I don't think so. Colleges? Doubt it. No, most people have to learn about them on their own or if they are lucky a good parent or friend or family member but the majority does not truly understand what their rights really are. I talk to gun owners all the time that don't know you can OC in Indiana. Some don't know that you need a license just to walk of your property (I know that got changed I'm just making a point from beofre it was changed).

I also enjoy teaching what I have learned. Anyone who knows me for more than 5 minutes knows who I am. I like to talk and guns are my interest. Even if I were to CC exclusively everyone I come into contact with would know I carry. Why not make it easier and just OC then? I have had innumerable good encounters while OCing, and a few bad ones. But the thing is that each of my bad experiences has taught someone else about OC, usually a cop which benefits everyone else because now someone who is sworn to uphold the law and the constitution now understand it a little better.

That is why I OC. It is the same reasons I carry at all. I don't really think it is necessary to get as worked up as some people do about it. I really don't think it requires "more training" than CC and I don't think that OCing by itself will get you into more gun fights. I think it is mostly how you carry yourself and where you go.

I think I may change what I say about carrying though, I may be an SCer (Self Carry) since open or concealed is really irrelevant... Nah.

 

[Lead Head]

Great article in that it allows the reader to decide while illustrating options and conditions. It makes you think, hopefully.

Personally I'm still on the fence with open carry but absolutely respect the right of a licensed permit holder to do just that. To those that do, you are the pioneers of a movement which carries a lot of responsibility more that normal. Train for being hassled and rise above.

If the trend in random crime and violence escalates, it may just become the norm to OC. Once law abiding OC's become like cell phones, my guess is the crime rate will drop to an all time historical low. The pain to get there might be too high for some and I'm not predicting things will decline, but I am realistic.

Here is one of the author's quotes that stood out to me;

"Your life will not be the same even if you prevail".

 

[ATM]

...I think that is the point he was making; that it happens. And if it does happen then why unecessarily increase your odds of it happening to you by OC'ing?

Hang on. I think you got something backwards.
The extremely rare nature of visibly armed civilians still being selected as the target of a crime would suggest that it isn't an increase in the odds of it happening to you, it's a decrease.
The unarmed and those who conceal to blend in with them are regularly attacked and robbed in staggering numbers.
They are less risk for easier pay in the criminal's mind.
Presenting the image of a softer target is what will naturally increase your odds of being selected for a criminal attack.

First off, the "deterrence" in Kennesaw, GA was due to a city ordinance that every household had to own a gun, not that people had to OC so we're not really talking about EXACTLY the same thing.

Not according to the criminals in the article:

"The criminals informed the police that they had changed their mind upon discovering armed customers and were waiting for Matt and J.P. to leave."​

Their scout observed the openly carrying individuals and did not want to mess with them. If they were scared of the possibility or an ordinance (if they were even aware of it), they would have planned the robbery in another county.

So let's just say that we are talking about exactly the same thing.

...The BG doesn't know if the target has a gun so they can't know how to plan their attack. If he knows there is a gun then he either attacks [STRIKE]DUE TO[/STRIKE] IN SPITE OF the presence of the gun or changes his tactics or moves on to an easier mark.

FTFY. The accounts of civilians being selected for attack specifically due to the presence of their visible gun are wildly popular in hypothetical examples but actually occur roughly never.

...why limit your options to get involved or not without some very clear evidence that OC'ing is a distinct benefit?

Depends on the evidence you trust. Normally, I don't trust criminals, but when the majority claim that they avoid the armed citizen even more than they avoid police... well, I actually think they're telling the truth.