The Insane "Social Justice" Thread II

[Ziggidy]

First, a disclaimer. I do not agree with affirmative action, where a inferior student bumps a superior student because of that of the inferior student's background.

But, a lot of cases (that are affirmative action) take in consideration background, when the candidates are equally qualified, but there isn't enough positions. If a school has a 99.9% white enrollment, and two students; one white, one black apply with essentially the same admissions profile, do you flip a coin to see who gets in, or do you diversify the student body?

Flip a coin....

ANY intentional decision made based on anything except qualifications, would be racial (in your example). "What if" the enrollment was 99% black? The fact that this discussion continues to include color, suggests that ANY decision made other than academic qualifications is wrong.

Flip a coin; but video the process and results, and make it a permanent part of the persons record.

NO ONE should diversify anything, anything of the kind is racism.

 

[Ziggidy]

Having grown up through all of this I am of the notion that you will be very hard pressed to find any student body that is 99.9% anything anymore. Just not going to happen unless you look at the mostly Black colleges. If there are even any of those left that are not diverse now. It is time to let all of this diversity crap go.
Go with the proper candidate that fits the opening. Race/culture should have "ZERO" to do with any of this. None. NADA.

Do the work. Get the grades. Fill the openings. If your grades wont open this door look for another door. One will open for you. JMHO as to how things are working these days.

I agree fully. One of the difficulties is that many "under"-educated individuals would rather blame the decision on race rather than their educational stature and "expectation" of what is due them.

 

[Birds Away]

I agree fully. One of the difficulties is that many "under"-educated individuals would rather blame the decision on race rather than their educational stature and "expectation" of what is due them.

Unfortunately it is easy to point fingers and difficult to find solutions. It saddens me to say that racism will be among us as long as people can make money from it and/or use it as a weapon against their idealogical opponents. For every person in the minority that points their finger at racism for denying them an education there are five people in the racial majority who take no advantage of the educational opportunities available to them and happily wallow in their ignorance.

 

[KLB]

Unfortunately it is easy to point fingers and difficult to find solutions. It saddens me to say that racism will be among us as long as people can make money from it and/or use it as a weapon against their idealogical opponents. For every person in the minority that points their finger at racism for denying them an education there are five people in the racial majority who take no advantage of the educational opportunities available to them and happily wallow in their ignorance.

Agreed. With the addition of ignorance as a cause. The racist people I have known tend to fall into this category.

 

[churchmouse]

There's that too. Is a 4.0 student from Carmel HS who lives in 500K house, no job, and drives a Beemer to school... more qualified than the 3.5 IPS kid, who has 5 siblings, works at Mcdonalds 3 days a week, and walks to school each day, careful not to get caught up in the neighborhood? "Qualified" is so subjective.

I see your point. But this has really nothing to do with diversity but leans more towards merit.

 

[EMDX6043]

Can they base the decision on who filed the application first?

First, a disclaimer. I do not agree with affirmative action, where a inferior student bumps a superior student because of that of the inferior student's background.

But, a lot of cases (that are affirmative action) take in consideration background, when the candidates are equally qualified, but there isn't enough positions. If a school has a 99.9% white enrollment, and two students; one white, one black apply with essentially the same admissions profile, do you flip a coin to see who gets in, or do you diversify the student body?

 

[Kutnupe14]

Can they base the decision on who filed the application first?

That actually seems like a pretty fair way to do things. I hadn't thought of that.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Flip a coin....

ANY intentional decision made based on anything except qualifications, would be racial (in your example). "What if" the enrollment was 99% black? The fact that this discussion continues to include color, suggests that ANY decision made other than academic qualifications is wrong.

Flip a coin; but video the process and results, and make it a permanent part of the persons record.

NO ONE should diversify anything, anything of the kind is racism.

...and legacies, children of donors, foreign/out of state students? Should they also not be extended additional consideration because of their status?

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Can they base the decision on who filed the application first?

That actually seems like a pretty fair way to do things. I hadn't thought of that.

You can be sure that someone would find a way to make "first come first served" racist. Like voter ID.

 

[KLB]

...and legacies, children of donors, foreign/out of state students? Should they also not be extended additional consideration because of their status?

Should they? No.

Two of those three would be for financial reasons. Donors basically buy a spot for their child. Out of state/foreign students pay more than in state students if the school is public. As in most things, money talks.

 

[EMDX6043]

I'm sure they would!

Maybe they should just have an app for it...

...or certified mail...or a phone # to submit your "bid"...or online...or fax...

You can be sure that someone would find a way to make "first come first served" racist. Like voter ID.

 

[Ziggidy]

...and legacies, children of donors, foreign/out of state students? Should they also not be extended additional consideration because of their status?

IMO, at least until I can be convinced otherwise, is NO ONE should get special consideration.......EXCEPT for Trump supporters!

https://www.breitbart.com/big-gover...mocrat-party-in-droves-since-trumps-election/

Just sayin'

 

[Trigger Time]

So people should be victims or discriminated against for being raised rich?
And poor people now must be given extra advantages because of what environment they came from?

Nope. Looks at the numbers and not the student and background. Race should never play into it. Economic status should never come into it.
That's like saying the kid who won state in the 100m because he could afford the latest soccony running spikes had an unfair advantage over the kid who got second with his Adidas hand me down spikes, so we are gonna give 1st place to the kid with the Adidas.

Stop ****ing with ****. We keep trying to interject this socialist bull **** into our society and we are ****ing it up.
We have totaly ****ed up our society since the 60's by messing up the natural order of things.
Give everyone equal rights and protections under the law
Period, stop.
No affirmative action. We are ruining our country with this crap. The damned hippy mindset has failed, stop it. My generation has started to actualy fix ****. Stop interjecting the failed 60's into America.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Should they? No.

Two of those three would be for financial reasons. Donors basically buy a spot for their child. Out of state/foreign students pay more than in state students if the school is public. As in most things, money talks.

All true. But if we're talking about merit, neither of those things seem applicable.

 

[Ziggidy]

I see it coming. Everything being equal EXCEPT for the means to PAY for the college (I see them lurking here) - the socialists will cry out in favor of the poor kid.

It comes down to money - who will pay the piper and what about those who cannot pay; all else being equal?

Personally I feel the poor kid will have to do what I had to do; make alternative plans. Seek another option. There are options, but it takes effort and work. Something that lacks in many minds.

MAYBE, just maybe if we had some teachers who really wanted to teach, instead of riding on their safe union tenure....just maybe we could lower the cost of education and really teach instead of indoctrinating.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I see it coming. Everything being equal EXCEPT for the means to PAY for the college (I see them lurking here) - the socialists will cry out in favor of the poor kid.

It comes down to money - who will pay the piper and what about those who cannot pay; all else being equal?

Personally I feel the poor kid will have to do what I had to do; make alternative plans. Seek another option. There are options, but it takes effort and work. Something that lacks in many minds.

MAYBE, just maybe if we had some teachers who really wanted to teach, instead of riding on their safe union tenure....just maybe we could lower the cost of education and really teach instead of indoctrinating.

With private colleges who cares? They can pick and choose who they wish... but when dealing with state colleges, that's an whole other monster. Not to get too personal, but you said you grew up poor... do you mean poor is "had a good life, but family wasn't destitute welfare" poor, or actually, under the poverty line needing govt assistance? Oh course you don't have to answer, but my point being, that if your family was of the latter, that means they were taxpayers. They paid for colleges to operate. If you had the grades to get in, and made the arrangements to pay the school back via a loan, for instance, which should richer people be allowed presence over you?

 

[Ziggidy]

With private colleges who cares? They can pick and choose who they wish... but when dealing with state colleges, that's an whole other monster. Not to get too personal, but you said you grew up poor... do you mean poor is "had a good life, but family wasn't destitute welfare" poor, or actually, under the poverty line needing govt assistance? Oh course you don't have to answer, but my point being, that if your family was of the latter, that means they were taxpayers. They paid for colleges to operate. If you had the grades to get in, and made the arrangements to pay the school back via a loan, for instance, which should richer people be allowed presence over you?

Good question, could lead to a whole new thread?

Poor? I ever thought we were poor. Always had food and a roof over my head. My friends were full spectrum - I was on the lower end of my group. I could not afford to go to the college of my choice so I never tried, because I didn't I could make it work. I didn't whine about it or protested about it, it's just how it was.

I worked hard, changed directions a few times but made it. Just retired from 44 years; the same career.

Should it have been different for me because others could afford it and I could not? No, not at all. I believe I am a better person for it. If one can afford it, they should do it. If I cannot, then alternatives exist. The end goal is always the same. The amount of effort and work along with a level head will mean success for anyone. That is a lesson learned from life.....not a rich school that I could or could not afford.

I'm the richest man in town. I have the Lord in my heart, a wonderful wife and family and all that I need. What else is there?

 

[jamil]

I am not talking about lesser candidates. I'm talking about equally qualified candidates, that some would say are are underrepresented. I have the opinion that if there are 99 of something that can do something, and one of something else, that can also do the job. Do you give a nod to the "something else" or leaving if with the "something" that is like the other 99?

I don't see a problem with considering background and things like overcoming adversity. I think that's a reasonable tie breaker. I don't think there's a lot of value in looking at race for admissions, but certainly there is in looking at hardships, and how a candidate has transcended them.

 

[jamil]

Flip a coin....

ANY intentional decision made based on anything except qualifications, would be racial (in your example). "What if" the enrollment was 99% black? The fact that this discussion continues to include color, suggests that ANY decision made other than academic qualifications is wrong.

Flip a coin; but video the process and results, and make it a permanent part of the persons record.

NO ONE should diversify anything, anything of the kind is racism.

As I said, I don't value basing any choices on race, but there is some value in cultural diversity. The nation is full of different cultures. Many students go to college having never really experienced the diversity of cultures we have just in the US, let alone the world. I'm not even talking about cultures which are tightly coupled to race. I've lived in enough regions of the country to know each one has their own cultures, social norms, etcetera. There isn't a "white" culture.

If it's a tie otherwise, there are a lot better ways to determine which students they want to come to their university. Black student with 3.75, rich parents--both of them! Vs white student 3.75 from the trailer park, single mom, both have identical SATs, you pick the one who overcame more. And of course the same if it's the Black student from a poor single-parent family who overcame more.

 

[Ziggidy]

As I said, I don't value basing any choices on race, but there is some value in cultural diversity. The nation is full of different cultures. Many students go to college having never really experienced the diversity of cultures we have just in the US, let alone the world. I'm not even talking about cultures which are tightly coupled to race. I've lived in enough regions of the country to know each one has their own cultures, social norms, etcetera. There isn't a "white" culture.

If it's a tie otherwise, there are a lot better ways to determine which students they want to come to their university. Black student with 3.75, rich parents--both of them! Vs white student 3.75 from the trailer park, single mom, both have identical SATs, you pick the one who overcame more. And of course the same if it's the Black student from a poor single-parent family who overcame more.

There is always a lottery that could help decide who should go. All being equal, there is a near zero chance objective decisions can be made.


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