The Inconvenient Truth About Electric Vehicles

[jamil]

In that time period the maint. on the Hippie chick magnet (do the shave legs and pits these days..??) so any and all savings are right out the window.
Kind of like doing a heat pump over a 92% gas unit to heat the house. They are both losers.

Hey. At least you don't have to buy her razors, perfume, deodorant, or makeup.

 

[churchmouse]

Hey. At least you don't have to buy her razors, perfume, deodorant, or makeup.

Good points all....

I am just remembering the hippie chicks from the 1st go round. You know, the real ones.

 

[jamil]

In that time period the maint. on the Hippie chick magnet (do the shave legs and pits these days..??) so any and all savings are right out the window.
Kind of like doing a heat pump over a 92% gas unit to heat the house. They are both losers.

Oh snap. I just read that the Volt battery is under warranty for 8 years/100K miles. Huh. 50 miles per day. 250 days per year. 8 years. Crap. that's 100K miles! Yer ****ed after just 8 years. That battery is like $3500!

Also, it seems the resale on these hippy chick magnets is pretty crappy. The more I look into it, the more buying a cheep ass non-hippy-chick magnet car that gets maybe 30+ mpg keeps looking better, even with Uncle Sam's gift from American posterity's pockets.

 

[BugI02]

Comparing the various motor types only at the output doesn't tell you about the overall efficiency or costs for transportation use.

Let's generally compare the following:
A. Gas Turbine Engine
B. Turboshaft Engine
1. Diesel burned in ICE to propel vehicle
2. Diesel burned in ICE turns generator to produce electricity > electricity powers electric motors to propel vehicle
3. Diesel burned in ICE turns generator to produce electricity > charges battery > battery powers electric motors to propel vehicle [You left out a whole class of engine ]

Real life examples of all of the above exist and are in use. Most efficient to least efficient use of the chemical energy contained in the diesel fuel is [A,B] 1, 2, then 3. If you think otherwise you are wrong. Sometimes other considerations outweigh energy efficiency, such as in trains and submarines, but that DOES NOT mean those methods are superior, or smart, for everyday vehicle transportation use.
[Snip]

I am still trying to impress upon you what a slippery term'efficiency' is as a stand alone for comparison
Are we speaking of Thermal efficiency, Economic efficiency, Mechanical efficiency, MPG? The basis for comparison needs to be uniform.
You persist in going far enough upstream from the actual output of the engine type to reach a vantage favorable to your preferred type of engine, and no further. If you move further upstream from just putting gas or diesel in the tank, diesel fuel/jet fuel (which is really just a somewhat more refined version of diesel fraction with tighter tolerence for particulates and sulfur) can be distilled from around 58 -62% of a barrel of oil. Gasoline more like 52-54%. So immediately, at this vantage, diesel is a more efficient fuel to produce from a barrel of oil and it contains about 14% more thermal energy per comparable liquid measure (volumetric) than gasoline. Thus diesel is also more volumetrically efficient as a fuel, which is important where space is constrained (such as tanks on an aircraft)

Pick a type of efficiency, and a point at which to measure it across the entire IC engine spectrum, then we can talk

Note: If we're talking Thermal efficiency, gas turbines eclipse all else - they approach 60% quite closely

 

[BugI02]

Oh snap. I just read that the Volt battery is under warranty for 8 years/100K miles. Huh. 50 miles per day. 250 days per year. 8 years. Crap. that's 100K miles! Yer ****ed after just 8 years. That battery is like $3500!

Also, it seems the resale on these hippy chick magnets is pretty crappy. The more I look into it, the more buying a cheep ass non-hippy-chick magnet car that gets maybe 30+ mpg keeps looking better, even with Uncle Sam's gift from American posterity's pockets.

You haven't even mentioned the additional benefit of exposing yourself to the daily risk of accident for those 8yrs/2000 days sitting over a pretty substantial tub of toxic metal and flammable electrolyte

 

[AmmoManAaron]

I am still trying to impress upon you what a slippery term'efficiency' is as a stand alone for comparison
Are we speaking of Thermal efficiency, Economic efficiency, Mechanical efficiency, MPG? The basis for comparison needs to be uniform.
You persist in going far enough upstream from the actual output of the engine type to reach a vantage favorable to your preferred type of engine, and no further. If you move further upstream from just putting gas or diesel in the tank, diesel fuel/jet fuel (which is really just a somewhat more refined version of diesel fraction with tighter tolerence for particulates and sulfur) can be distilled from around 58 -62% of a barrel of oil. Gasoline more like 52-54%. So immediately, at this vantage, diesel is a more efficient fuel to produce from a barrel of oil and it contains about 14% more thermal energy per comparable liquid measure (volumetric) than gasoline. Thus diesel is also more volumetrically efficient as a fuel, which is important where space is constrained (such as tanks on an aircraft)

Pick a type of efficiency, and a point at which to measure it across the entire IC engine spectrum, then we can talk

Note: If we're talking Thermal efficiency, gas turbines eclipse all else - they approach 60% quite closely

No, you're missing the point, we are discussing why electric vehicles are NOT the future of personal ground transportation. I picked the point at which the fuel of your choice is burned/used and went from there. I even threw in nuclear just for giggles. I see uninformed greenies go on about how great electric cars are because they pollute so little - BS. The point of pollution simply changed from the tailpipe to the powerplant. The point at which the fuel (source of energy) is used is the only logical starting point. If you want to step back to oil, fine, your point about diesel vs. gasoline is valid, but still misses the mark because we are talking about electric vehicles vs. ICE. The fuel for the ICE is your choice, I simply chose ones that were directly comparable (diesel, diesel electric) for consistency, but you could just as easily do gasoline and gasoline electric if it suits your fancy. I even did the variations on natural gas, but you edited those out. As for the gas turbine and turboshaft engines, find a production street legal vehicle that uses either and I will concede that either is more efficient for the purpose. The most pertinent fact will still remain that the efficiency of electric vehicles doesn't compare favorably with ICE...or gas turbine, or turboshaft propelled vehicles. Getting into the weeds about gas turbine or turboshaft engines doesn't further the discussion, unless you want to proclaim the benefits of using those in normal road going vehicles (fine if you do, but you've got some serious cost and engineering challenges ahead of you before we even talk about whether they are a good idea efficiency-wise).

 

[BugI02]

No, you're missing the point, we are discussing why electric vehicles are NOT the future of personal ground transportation. I picked the point at which the fuel of your choice is burned/used and went from there. I even threw in nuclear just for giggles. I see uninformed greenies go on about how great electric cars are because they pollute so little - BS. The point of pollution simply changed from the tailpipe to the powerplant. The point at which the fuel (source of energy) is used is the only logical starting point. If you want to step back to oil, fine, your point about diesel vs. gasoline is valid, but still misses the mark because we are talking about electric vehicles vs. ICE. The fuel for the ICE is your choice, I simply chose ones that were directly comparable (diesel, diesel electric) for consistency, but you could just as easily do gasoline and gasoline electric if it suits your fancy. I even did the variations on natural gas, but you edited those out. As for the gas turbine and turboshaft engines, find a production street legal vehicle that uses either and I will concede that either is more efficient for the purpose. The most pertinent fact will still remain that the efficiency of electric vehicles doesn't compare favorably with ICE...or gas turbine, or turboshaft propelled vehicles. Getting into the weeds about gas turbine or turboshaft engines doesn't further the discussion, unless you want to proclaim the benefits of using those in normal road going vehicles (fine if you do, but you've got some serious cost and engineering challenges ahead of you before we even talk about whether they are a good idea efficiency-wise).

The MTT Y2K Turbine Motorcycle, also known as the Y2K Turbine Superbike, is a motorcycle powered by a turboshaft engine, made by Marine Turbine Technologies since 2000. The bikes are not mass produced in continuous series; each unique bike is hand made to order after receiving the buyer's specifications. Guinness World Records considers it a production motorcycle.

Jay Leno gots one! Street legal. You may concede at your convenience

And I would argue that you are also somewhat missing the point, we can't discuss 'efficiency' without agreeing what kind

 

[Spike Jones 5 2002]

from what I read here and what the salesman told me is different.
The GMC salesman told me, "The VOLT does not run on gas. Before 400 miles the battery is dead and the car is dead on the road."
I lost interest and stopped.

Jay Leno built a gas turbine car. he stated the biggest problem is the transmission. if it losses any (not sure how to say this) drag on the turbine drive. the turbine immediately over revs and blows up.
Also the heat out of the turbine is excessive.
Chrysler built several turbine cars about 50 years ago. none went into production.
Turbine were band from race tracks.

when I was in the Air Force the aircraft had gas turbine power unit to supply electricity.
When i fired it up. it was (as they say) a trip.
You hear it rev up. the the roar when it kicks in.
I would not want to be sitting next to a car with the roaring.
there had to be a lot of sound proofing to sit comfortable inside the car.

 

[HoughMade]

The Volt is always driven by electric motors, but has a gas engine that will keep the batteries from going dead as long as there is gas.

The Bolt is all electric.

the salesman's confusion may be that the gas engine does not, generally, recharge the batteries, but provides enough power to let the car operate electrically. He may have thought that the batteries would eventually go dead if the engine was not recharging them when in reality, once the batteries get to around 30%, the engine, through a generator, provides the electricity to run the electric motors and will maintain the battery at that level indefinitely. The total range of a Volt including a full charge and a tank of gas is around 400 miles...but then like any other car, you can fill the gas tank and keep going. The batteries will not be fully charged until plugged in, but the car is not dead in the water.

 

[eldirector]

2017 Volt: Hybrid Electric Cars | Chevrolet

Offering up to 53 pure electric miles† and up to 420 miles† with a full charge and a full tank of gas, the new Volt allows you to make fewer stops, letting you focus on your commute. Plus, Chevrolet expects owners will drive 1,000 miles† between fill-ups with regular charging, making the gas station a distant memory.

 

[thunderchicken]

Ok there's a bit more science being discussed in relation to efficiency than what is in my wheel house. However, on occasion I have to work on some of these "green" vehicles and here is my opinion (automotive experience only). As I understand it from some training and a friend who spent 16yrs (until last yr) as a Fuels class instructor. CNG, LP ( propane/auto gas), diesel and gasoline all start out from the same oil well sources. The big differences are in the ways they are refined, and how clean they burn. Diesel is still a very dirty burning fuel source. However it is getting better as they are being forced to meet higher standards. CNG (compressed natural gas) LP (aka propane, propane auto gas) as compared to gasoline burn cleaner but both have problems. CNG can't legally be worked on in many shops due to specific HVAC requirements. A majority of technicians aren't trained or don't have/ can't justify the cost for the special tools. Most CNG and LP systems are conversions and many of those installs use hard to find/ discontinued parts and have to have replacement parts adapted to fit. CNG can be sensitive to ambient air temp and can make filling up difficult. LP is more stable for filling up and most of those systems are actually dual fuel so they can use either LP or gasoline. Again installation/parts can be a PITA. It doesn't require shops to have the same HVAC standards as CNG. But again it is a cleaner burning fuel. E85 has been pushed for a long time..long & short the emissions is almost a wash by comparison. Hybrid/ electric are similar. Hybrid will switch to gas/electric based on driving conditions. Electric well they have limited distance between charges. I could go into more but just don't care to. Here is waht most do not realize and some tree huggers don't want to admit. The technology is available right now to all manufacturers to make gasoline engines exceed 25 mpg. In a perfect world a gasoline engine would only emit CO2 and a little bit of H2O from the exhaust. It's all about interest groups pushing agendas, making money, pushing government reg's

 

[jamil]

2017 Volt: Hybrid Electric Cars | Chevrolet

Plus it's a hippie chick magnet.

 

[churchmouse]

Plus it's a hippie chick magnet.

You have me thinking about some of the Hippie chicks I have known darn you.

 

[eldirector]

Plus it's a hippie chick magnet.

.
You can keep your hippie chicks. I have enough drama in my life. Stickin' to my down-home midwest girl.

Totally tangential... but popped in my head: My 7-yr-old girl to her little friend: "I love the smell of daddy's truck. Its a diesel." That's mah girl.

And also:

 

[churchmouse]

.
You can keep your hippie chicks. I have enough drama in my life. Stickin' to my down-home midwest girl.

Totally tangential... but popped in my head: My 7-yr-old girl to her little friend: "I love the smell of daddy's truck. Its a diesel." That's mah girl.

That is perfect....

 

[dozer13]

Agreed, the taxpayers on the hook for $50,000 subsidy for an individuals "feel good" purchase is still too much. If the individual buys a base model toyota and a couple pairs of walking shoes, he saves $15,000 and the taxpayers $50,000. Since deficit spending has been around longer than the Volt and all the GM subsidies under obummer, whatever the cost was is still hanging over our heads with compounding interest. For a nation that cannot service the maintenance on the debt, there has to be a better solution.


I think the electrics are a option for some people, and I back their right to have them, and as many of them as they can afford. I do also believe that a product or service is not viable if it does not stand on its own financial merits. If subsidy is required, it should be from the purchaser, not the taxpayers.

United States fossil fuel subsidies at $37.5 billion annually, including $21 billion in production and exploration subsidies. Other credible estimates of annual United States fossil fuel subsidies range from $10 billion to $52 billion annually. That $50000 per car isn't so bad just think that's a 1000000 cars and at least most that money would stay state side rather than going off shore (I know we have stepped up our oil production but still) its also estimated the the oil industry gets almost 1trillion in subsidies globally that's insane.

 

[thunderchicken]

.
You can keep your hippie chicks. I have enough drama in my life. Stickin' to my down-home midwest girl.

Totally tangential... but popped in my head: My 7-yr-old girl to her little friend: "I love the smell of daddy's truck. Its a diesel." That's mah girl.

And also:

Nice real nice. Sounds like my 16yo daughter. When I work on the racecar she is always like.. Are you going to start it up today? I love that smell and the sound...when will you let me go on the starting line? Oh and she likes to hang out where the tire smoke blows over and then she asks...when will you teach me how to do a burn out? That's my girl...step son well he thinks we should all have hybrids or mopeds. I look at him and just wonder

 

[churchmouse]

Nice real nice. Sounds like my 16yo daughter. When I work on the racecar she is always like.. Are you going to start it up today? I love that smell and the sound...when will you let me go on the starting line? Oh and she likes to hang out where the tire smoke blows over and then she asks...when will you teach me how to do a burn out? That's my girl...step son well he thinks we should all have hybrids or mopeds. I look at him and just wonder

You can honestly say it is in the genes.........

 

[rhino]

So . . . for those who think electric cars are awesome, try driving when it's hot enough outside that you need to run the A/C and fan at max. Readjust how far you think you can go.

 

[actaeon277]

So . . . for those who think electric cars are awesome, try driving when it's hot enough outside that you need to run the A/C and fan at max. Readjust how far you think you can go.

The same with the heater in the winter.
And the defroster.