The General Technology Thread

[KLB]

So I've got a rather old router that is having trouble keeping up these days; time for a new infrastructure.


The router itself is in the basement corner, so not good for coverage - I need some extra AP. But, those AP's need to be smart enough so I can have a guest network that won't allow access to private network (e.g. servers, my laptop). Most everything is wired, so over four switch ports would be good.



And suggestions on what to look at first?

How much do you want to spend?

A good wireless mesh system would probably be best for you.

 

[JettaKnight]

How much do you want to spend?

A good wireless mesh system would probably be best for you.

I don't think so.


I have plenty of ports to connect access points (I really won't need more than two). I just need to make sure those access points respect the guest/private rules and can hand off to each other.

 

[maxwelhse]

So I've got a rather old router that is having trouble keeping up these days; time for a new infrastructure.


The router itself is in the basement corner, so not good for coverage - I need some extra AP. But, those AP's need to be smart enough so I can have a guest network that won't allow access to private network (e.g. servers, my laptop). Most everything is wired, so over four switch ports would be good.



And suggestions on what to look at first?

It would be helpful to know what you have now that isn't meeting your needs. Your current router may well be better than the one I'm about to suggest, so...

I upgraded to this guy about 3 years ago and will do everything you're asking about (AFAIK) and it's ridiculously easy to configure. I've been happy with it. It's also $50, refurbed, on Amazon, so... the price is right. Mine is a refurb unit too and I've never had an issue with it.

The only thing I might consider in your position is whatever new version of it that has detachable antennas so you can upgrade them if you want. With a good antenna, you might not need to scatter access points out all over the house...?

If you're willing to sell yourself directly to the beast, the Google Nest stuff is supposed to be insanely easy to use. A guy at work swears by them and has deployed several among his family members, as well as other Nest integration.

 

[JettaKnight]

It would be helpful to know what you have now that isn't meeting your needs. Your current router may well be better than the one I'm about to suggest, so...

I upgraded to this guy about 3 years ago and will do everything you're asking about (AFAIK) and it's ridiculously easy to configure. I've been happy with it. It's also $50, refurbed, on Amazon, so... the price is right. Mine is a refurb unit too and I've never had an issue with it.

Three years old is a lot newer than mine.

My router occasionally stops... just sort of, "yeah, I don't feel like fulfilling http request." I have no idea is there's a ARP table getting filled up, or what.

I'll try and update this post with the model number.... it's an old Netgear, back before routers looked like Klingon Birds of Prey.

If you're willing to sell yourself directly to the beast, the Google Nest stuff is supposed to be insanely easy to use. A guy at work swears by them and has deployed several among his family members, as well as other Nest integration.

Aww, hell naw!

 

[Cameramonkey]

Check out Amplifi. It has a main router/AP and you can add plug in mesh APs to spread around the rest of the house as needed.


And I know for a fact Unifi does isolated guest networks and a TON more. Amplifi is the consumer version of it so I am sure it does.

And it will give you a bandwidth usage going back 7 days. Not the 30 really needed to keep Comcast honest but its a start.

 

[maxwelhse]

Three years old is a lot newer than mine.

My router occasionally stops... just sort of, "yeah, I don't feel like fulfilling http request." I have no idea is there's a ARP table getting filled up, or what.

I'll try and update this post with the model number.... it's an old Netgear, back before routers looked like Klingon Birds of Prey.

My router does look cool.

No complaints about it whatsoever. 2.4ghz and 5ghz networks both work perfectly and it's never given me a performance issue.

The only bad thing I have to say about it is that the status light on the top of it flashes non-stop when it wants a firmware update... which means its been flashing non-stop for 3 years for me. It ain't broke, so I'm not fixing it.

As far as establishing a mesh and all of that, you're past my experience level. Any place I've ever run out of wifi range I've strung an ethernet cable to. I'd be much more inclined to install a high gain antenna at another location than I would be to add additional actual network gear. I've never tried it, but I imagine a run of regular coax would do it.

That's almost a nerdy enough experiment for me just to try it...

 

[Cameramonkey]

forget high gain antennas. unless you can also install one on your laptop, phone etc. Sure the AP can hear the distant device, but can the distant device hear the AP? (No)

 

[maxwelhse]

forget high gain antennas. unless you can also install one on your laptop, phone etc. Sure the AP can hear the distant device, but can the distant device hear the AP? (No)

I'm too ignorant for this to be an argument so don't read me wrong, but I thought the high gains were 2 way and thus could both broadcast and listen at extended ranges. Not how they work?

Also... If it's just one trouble spot of the house, a high gain on a laptop or desktop really isn't a big deal. A USB NIC with external antenna is like $8. They work awesome. I've had my parents running that way for over 10 years now.

edit: Also, my proposal is to bring a high gain antenna TO the problem area, by way of coax cable. So... Don't move the router or add equipment, just add another antenna. Again, no clue if that would actually work.

 

[jamil]

Three years old is a lot newer than mine.

My router occasionally stops... just sort of, "yeah, I don't feel like fulfilling http request." I have no idea is there's a ARP table getting filled up, or what.

I'll try and update this post with the model number.... it's an old Netgear, back before routers looked like Klingon Birds of Prey.



Aww, hell naw!

Do you regularly install firmware updates? Sometimes they get around to fixing stuff. I've had this router maybe 3 or 4 years. My iphone had problems connecting to 5Ghz, but connected to 2.4Ghz just fine. The 5Ghz connections have been a lot more stable since I installed an update several months ago.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I'm too ignorant for this to be an argument so don't read me wrong, but I thought the high gains were 2 way and thus could both broadcast and listen at extended ranges. Not how they work?

Also... If it's just one trouble spot of the house, a high gain on a laptop or desktop really isn't a big deal. A USB NIC with external antenna is like $8. They work awesome. I've had my parents running that way for over 10 years now.

edit: Also, my proposal is to bring a high gain antenna TO the problem area, by way of coax cable. So... Don't move the router or add equipment, just add another antenna. Again, no clue if that would actually work.

No offense taken.

Increasing gain on one side is only beneficial to that side typically. It does help a bit, but when you get out beyond a certain point, not even that helps unless the far side also has a high gain antenna.


The most overlooked tool for extending wifi is a powerline adapter. It doesnt work in >4,000 sqft homes with complex breaker panels/sub panels, or older homes (pre 1940s) but they are worth trying. It basically creates a proprietary network across the home's copper power lines. Not terribly fast but they work well. You can either get them to just extend the ethernet to the other end of the pair, or some even have a built in WIFI AP in one end. So you plug the head end module into the wall by your router and plug an ethernet cable between the powerline unit and the router. Then you plug in the remote side and either configure it as a wifi AP or plug in a wired PC into that box. and you have network that is backhauling across the Romex. Pretty cool.

https://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/powerline/

These also work well if you have coax lines installed. Same concept, except across coax. It runs both the TV signal and network across the same wires.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013J7O3X0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[maxwelhse]

Yeah... I'm just thinking run a second wifi antenna over coax to the trouble spot of the house and let it eat?

 

[Cameramonkey]

Yeah... I'm just thinking run a second wifi antenna over coax to the trouble spot of the house and let it eat?

Yep. These are nice. even have an explicit setting for using them as an AP instead of a router (which will mess with your main router if you dont change its mode)

https://www.amazon.com/Asus-Rt-Ac66...=1&keywords=asus+router&qid=1600223661&sr=8-5

 

[maxwelhse]

Yep. These are nice. even have an explicit setting for using them as an AP instead of a router (which will mess with your main router if you dont change its mode)

https://www.amazon.com/Asus-Rt-Ac66...=1&keywords=asus+router&qid=1600223661&sr=8-5

For $93 it seems reasonable to have the additional features.

 

[KLB]

No offense taken.

Increasing gain on one side is only beneficial to that side typically. It does help a bit, but when you get out beyond a certain point, not even that helps unless the far side also has a high gain antenna.


The most overlooked tool for extending wifi is a powerline adapter. It doesnt work in >4,000 sqft homes with complex breaker panels/sub panels, or older homes (pre 1940s) but they are worth trying. It basically creates a proprietary network across the home's copper power lines. Not terribly fast but they work well. You can either get them to just extend the ethernet to the other end of the pair, or some even have a built in WIFI AP in one end. So you plug the head end module into the wall by your router and plug an ethernet cable between the powerline unit and the router. Then you plug in the remote side and either configure it as a wifi AP or plug in a wired PC into that box. and you have network that is backhauling across the Romex. Pretty cool.

https://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/powerline/

These also work well if you have coax lines installed. Same concept, except across coax. It runs both the TV signal and network across the same wires.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013J7O3X0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The reason for high gain antennae is that the AP generates a stronger signal than a typical wireless device. The high gain increases the ability of the AP to receive the signal of the wireless device, thus extending the range and/or increasing throughput.

 

[KLB]

I don't think so.


I have plenty of ports to connect access points (I really won't need more than two). I just need to make sure those access points respect the guest/private rules and can hand off to each other.

Are you looking for seamless roaming or just the ability to have the same SSID/PSK on multiple APs?

 

[Cameramonkey]

The reason for high gain antennae is that the AP generates a stronger signal than a typical wireless device. The high gain increases the ability of the AP to receive the signal of the wireless device, thus extending the range and/or increasing throughput.

But adding gain on only one side is only partially beneficial. To get full effect you have to raise it on BOTH sides. Yes you will get SOME increase in range. But if the other end lacks the same, its lack of radiating power still wont talk loud enough to reach the high gain receive antenna when it gets to a certain point.

To be more specific, (in generalities) if you start with a standard antenna and have range of 200 yards, and add a high gain antenna to both sides you can double the range to 400 yards because you are increasing receive gain as well as radiating efficiency. But take away one side and the range drops to 300 because although you are increasing the antenna sensitivity, its still not adequate to achieve the full distance. Its still better than no gain, but just doing one side cant get you the full benefits.

 

[jkaetz]

Three years old is a lot newer than mine.

My router occasionally stops... just sort of, "yeah, I don't feel like fulfilling http request." I have no idea is there's a ARP table getting filled up, or what.

I'll try and update this post with the model number.... it's an old Netgear, back before routers looked like Klingon Birds of Prey.

Are you trying to do this all wirelessly or do you plan to have ethernet connecting all the APs together? If you want simplicity, you likely want the mesh things that available now. If you're good with doing the configuring, you can do it with a couple of "standard" router/AP units.

I have two APs and will likely add a third but everything is connected via ethernet.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Are you trying to do this all wirelessly or do you plan to have ethernet connecting all the APs together? If you want simplicity, you likely want the mesh things that available now. If you're good with doing the configuring, you can do it with a couple of "standard" router/AP units.

I have two APs and will likely add a third but everything is connected via ethernet.

And to put a finer point on it, it will be MUCH easier for a canned mesh system. With systems like Unifi and Amplifi, you configure them in one console and the configs are passed on automatically to all the APs. If you go the route of multiple standalone APs, you will need to carefully configure each one or it wont work as expected. Fat fingering one AP's config will cause it not to work as expected.

A common misconception is how to configure multiple APs. You'll see sites with SSIDs with names like Mariott1FLW Mariott2FLE MariottLobby, etc. That requires users to join each one manually and type in the passphrase for each join.

But if you configure ALL the APs with the exact same SSID, passphrase, and encryption type, your device will roam from AP to AP as it sees the strongest signal based on where they are. The only time you want to use separate SSIDs is when you want to be able to choose for yourself.

And if you want a true guest isolated network (guests cant see your devices, and can only use the internet) I doubt the ability of separate standalone APs, even of the same brand. Mixing brands would be unpredicatable.

 

[JettaKnight]

Do you regularly install firmware updates? Sometimes they get around to fixing stuff. I've had this router maybe 3 or 4 years. My iphone had problems connecting to 5Ghz, but connected to 2.4Ghz just fine. The 5Ghz connections have been a lot more stable since I installed an update several months ago.

It's been a while...

Are you looking for seamless roaming or just the ability to have the same SSID/PSK on multiple APs?

Indeed.

Are you trying to do this all wirelessly or do you plan to have ethernet connecting all the APs together? If you want simplicity, you likely want the mesh things that available now. If you're good with doing the configuring, you can do it with a couple of "standard" router/AP units.

I have two APs and will likely add a third but everything is connected via ethernet.

I have ethernet running to most places in the house.



Right now, I've got an old WRT access point (DD-WRT) in the living room. It's just good enough, but only 2.4GHz and only one channel - set to mirror the guest network on the router. The problem is, if you connect to that, it will happily let you connect to my server (assume the server likes your credentials).



I'm not an IT pro, but know my way around linux and such. I just have no idea what's available today, product-wise.

 

[jkaetz]

It's been a while...



Indeed.



I have ethernet running to most places in the house.



Right now, I've got an old WRT access point (DD-WRT) in the living room. It's just good enough, but only 2.4GHz and only one channel - set to mirror the guest network on the router. The problem is, if you connect to that, it will happily let you connect to my server (assume the server likes your credentials).



I'm not an IT pro, but know my way around linux and such. I just have no idea what's available today, product-wise.

Depending on the performance you want, you could look into the new WiFI 6 stuff but I have no complaints about my Netgear R7000s. They were state of the art at one time and still do everything I want even without going to an open router firmware. [STRIKE]I'd have to confirm but I suspect most of the newer equipment to understand how to route a guest network's traffic strait to your home's default gateway instead of simply dropping it onto the LAN if it has an "AP" mode.[/STRIKE]This does not work. Enabling the guest network even in AP mode does grant guests access to the LAN. Odd that they programmed it this way since even in AP mode the unit knows what the default gateway is. For that matter it should simply pick a private IP space and not even use the LAN DHCP server. *Sigh* I guess that's where you need to jump to the Amplify or mesh systems. With this config, the only thing guest about it is that you can give guests a different passphrase.

If you really want security you could always do as a colleague of mine does and layer your network with two routers. Router A connects to the modem and handles IOT, guest, and other less secure things. Router B hops through router A and handles all your high security stuff. Highly complex and slightly excessive but it's the way he things.