The [Current Year] General Political/Salma Hayek discussion thread, part 4!!!

[T.Lex]

I wouldn’t say it’s a coup. But given some deep-statey kinds of statements from some fairly high ups in various agencies, talk of “insurance policies”, etcetera; making up elaborate narratives like Russian collusion to try to dig up some grounds for impeachment, and then using the current scandal to say the president needs to be impeached WITHOUT AN INVESTIGATION, kinda shows a willful intent to remove the current administration by any means necessary.

It’s not a coup in the common use of the term. But it seeks a regime change all the same. I would just say it’s a hyperbolic use of the term. And given the hyperbole thrown around by both sides, it’s pretty tame. I’m way more bothered by the President saying, “we take the guns first...” than I am about this. So calm down. It’s just another Wednesday in American politics.

Oh, I'm totally calm about this.

In the context of Trump's tweets, this doesn't even move the "abuse of language" meter.

I'm more curious about how literal his supporters will take him on this.

 

[ghuns]

I miss teh good ole days.

You know, when we got stuck with a president we didn't like and we just waited the 4 or 8 years for him to be gone.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I wouldn’t say it’s a coup. But given some deep-statey kinds of statements from some fairly high ups in various agencies, talk of “insurance policies”, etcetera; making up elaborate narratives like Russian collusion to try to dig up some grounds for impeachment, and then using the current scandal to say the president needs to be impeached WITHOUT AN INVESTIGATION, kinda shows a willful intent to remove the current administration by any means necessary.

It’s not a coup in the common use of the term. But it seeks a regime change all the same. I would just say it’s a hyperbolic use of the term. And given the hyperbole thrown around by both sides, it’s pretty tame. I’m way more bothered by the President saying, “we take the guns first...” than I am about this. So calm down. It’s just another Wednesday in American politics.

"You" might not call it a "coup," but plenty have brought into the president's rhetoric.

So since behind-the-scenes coup didn't work the Dems are going for an overt coup.

In addition to the media hucksters and apparatchiks who are using ANYTHING negatively perceived to perpetrate an outright coup of a sitting president. There’s always been an ebb and flow of the financial market, they are going to make this one worse by screaming “the sky is falling!”

I certainly hope so. Time for a reckoning with those who attempted a coup. Throw them in prison.

 

[jamil]

Trump: "This move by the Democrats is just a Presidential assassination!"


no see he just means a character assassination, duh

Okay. That’s more like it. We’ll just keep ratcheting up the hyperbole volume control until we blow the amp.

I’m not sure where you go from “he’s literally Hitler” though. Of course them being merely the press, plus some rando congress critters, lessens the hyperbolic coefficient. Him being president is at least a 3x multiplier. So maybe that makes “he’s literally Hitler and his call with the Ukrainian President was treason!” even-steven with “Ahg, they’re trying to assassinate me!”

At some point you just throw up your hands and just laugh at everyone. Everyone is historical, and that makes everyone hilarious. Just laugh at it. And revel in your place in history. You got a front row seat. I’m just wondering what will be the encore.

 

[BugI02]

Perhaps you should meditate upon the literal translation of the full phrase, which is of course coup d'Etat

"Stroke against the State". It is an attempt to remove and replace the government of a state, which the impeachment-go-round certainly meets the definition of. In modern useage it implies that the government being attacked is somehow illegitimate or has lost the consent of the governed. That certainly seems likely to have come directly from the "Closet Progressive Talking Points" email and as usual seeks to ignore the fact that a substantial fraction of the governed still support Trump and his goals, just as they did when they legitimately elected him

Where do you stand? Is this government illegitimate? Did Trump steal the election? Is he a dictator? Should he be overthrown by means fair or foul?

Every time people claim the mantle of the resistance, they dishonor the memory of men (real ones) and women who put their lives on the line (and often lost them) to fight against real fascists and dictators and Nazis. But i'm sure your purple heart for twitter finger or citation fatigue will take you far in the new order

 

[ghuns]

...I’m just wondering what will be the encore.

 

[jamil]

"You" might not call it a "coup," but plenty have brought into the president's rhetoric.

If it’s okay to hyperbolically call Trump Hitler, and call just about every foreign interaction treason, I can’t complain about people hyperbolically saying what they’re doing is a coup. THAT is just being consistent.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Meh. Connotation vs Denotation. Let's not play the boring semantics game to excuse poor language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coups_d'état_and_coup_attempts

How many of these were violent, or forceful military takeovers, and how many were simple impeachments?

"Coup" is a stupid word choice. It's funny to watch, but I definitely think there are some... ardent followers... that will feel riled up by the usage of the word.

 

[KG1]

It's a new type of coup ... a cold coup. Death by a thousand lies, overwhelming the simpleton minds to believe all the **** being spewed. First set of lies don't work, on to the next on the list ... ad nauseum.

Does the impeachment spectre not have you questioning the possibility of a cold coup?

.

Would this be a cold cup of coup?

 

[T.Lex]

Meh. Connotation vs Denotation. Let's not play the boring semantics game to excuse poor language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coups_d'état_and_coup_attempts

How many of these were violent, or forceful military takeovers, and how many were simple impeachments?

"Coup" is a stupid word choice. It's funny to watch, but I definitely think there are some... ardent followers... that will feel riled up by the usage of the word.

I guess if he wants to call it a "constitutional coup" then so be it.

But this language butchery is getting very near to arguing about the definition of "is."

 

[jamil]

Perhaps you should meditate upon the literal translation of the full phrase, which is of course coup d'Etat

"Stroke against the State". It is an attempt to remove and replace the government of a state, which the impeachment-go-round certainly meets the definition of. In modern useage it implies that the government being attacked is somehow illegitimate or has lost the consent of the governed. That certainly seems likely to have come directly from the "Closet Progressive Talking Points" email and as usual seeks to ignore the fact that a substantial fraction of the governed still support Trump and his goals, just as they did when they legitimately elected him

Where do you stand? Is this government illegitimate? Did Trump steal the election? Is he a dictator? Should he be overthrown by means fair or foul?

Every time people claim the mantle of the resistance, they dishonor the memory of men (real ones) and women who put their lives on the line (and often lost them) to fight against real fascists and dictators and Nazis. But i'm sure your purple heart for twitter finger or citation fatigue will take you far in the new order

I laugh at people who use #resistance just as I laugh at the larp geeks. These people are essentially playing the same kind of game. Except that while pretending to be the freedom fighters, this is unknowingly a delusion that masks the useful idiots they are in real life.

 

[Leadeye]

Deep State, dc, beltway whatever you want to call it, it's a machine that's made a lot of folks connected to it very rich. President Trump ran on attacking that machine so it would be an expected reaction that the machine would fight back to preserve it's privileges. It's not like open combat though because the machine has the most to lose as it gets exposed more and more to John Q. I think most Americans while suspicious of it would be horrified to know the actual depth of corruption in dc and the low regard leadership has for the citizens it's supposed to be working for.

 

[Birds Away]

Deep State, dc, beltway whatever you want to call it, it's a machine that's made a lot of folks connected to it very rich. President Trump ran on attacking that machine so it would be an expected reaction that the machine would fight back to preserve it's privileges. It's not like open combat though because the machine has the most to lose as it gets exposed more and more to John Q. I think most Americans while suspicious of it would be horrified to know the actual depth of corruption in dc and the low regard leadership has for the citizens it's supposed to be working for.

QFT.

 

[BugI02]

But they rolled a twenty in the fight against the evil Trump? What more can a quest companion do?

 

[T.Lex]

Deep State, dc, beltway whatever you want to call it, it's a machine that's made a lot of folks connected to it very rich. President Trump ran on attacking that machine so it would be an expected reaction that the machine would fight back to preserve it's privileges. It's not like open combat though because the machine has the most to lose as it gets exposed more and more to John Q. I think most Americans while suspicious of it would be horrified to know the actual depth of corruption in dc and the low regard leadership has for the citizens it's supposed to be working for.

There are appropriate words for that - and Trump has even used them.

If Pelosi gets some paramilitary group (either an organized arm of LEO or volunteers... or LGM, I guess) to enforce articles of impeachment, then THAT would be a coup.

Until then this is just bad governance.

 

[jamil]

Meh. Connotation vs Denotation. Let's not play the boring semantics game to excuse poor language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coups_d'état_and_coup_attempts

How many of these were violent, or forceful military takeovers, and how many were simple impeachments?

"Coup" is a stupid word choice. It's funny to watch, but I definitely think there are some... ardent followers... that will feel riled up by the usage of the word.

Calm down young man. Everyone on the fringes is riled up. There are at least as many incendiary words evoking anger on the left. If we care at all, we care for all. Otherwise you’re cherry picking outrage.

But. I do understand the presidential hyperbole multiplier. Notwithstanding the 3x, he probably has a little room to claim he is experiencing follically challenged discrimination.

 

[jamil]

I guess if he wants to call it a "constitutional coup" then so be it.

But this language butchery is getting very near to arguing about the definition of "is."

We’re in a positive feedback loop of hyperbole. The only way to stop it is to break the loop. Who can do that? And who, with the power to do that, will stand up?

 

[Brad69]

I had a nice talk with a liberal yesterday and would like to share the cliff notes.

1. President Obama was respected all over the world and was close to “perfect” President Trump is a fool that everyone hates.

2. 3 million more votes went to Hillary so President Trump is not a legal President the Electoral College is not fair and racist.

3. President Tump supporters are stupid and can’t understand what’s going on.

4. President Trump and his family have personally made billions because of the office and that’s why he wanted to be President

6. Putin and Trump conspired to win the election and very few people voted for Tump the ballots were manipulated electronically.

7. President Tumps tax cut was only for the top tax bracket and was a political favor for his rich buddies.

8. The Congress is going to impeach Trump he does something wrong everyday so what’s it matter.

9. Socialism is the answer we all need to pitch in and give more to the poor and demand corporation’s make smaller profits.

10. The green new deal is great and will ensure everyone is treated equal.

I could go on you guys get the point !

 

[T.Lex]

Literal Hitler v. Literal Coup in a race to the bottom.

Oh. Boy.

 

[BugI02]

Meh. Connotation vs Denotation. Let's not play the boring semantics game to excuse poor language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coups_d'état_and_coup_attempts

How many of these were violent, or forceful military takeovers, and how many were simple impeachments?

"Coup" is a stupid word choice. It's funny to watch, but I definitely think there are some... ardent followers... that will feel riled up by the usage of the word.

Why, I believe you and T.Rex threw the determination into the semantic arena by attempting to question whether the attempt to take down Trump could be described as a coup. It can. Don't be a sore loser.

The phrase has a mid-18th century etymology, also - so at least half the references in your cite predate the concept and were retconned

Edit: That the preponderance of events described as coups were violent no more changes the definition of coup than does the fact that many elections in non first world countries involve violence, intimidation and vote rigging change the definition of election. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own dictionary