Tell me about a trust or LLC for NFA stuff

[mettle]

Anyone us this route to forego some of the formalities of paperwork?

 

[tyler34]

I have a fill in the blanks trust form but haven't used it yet. from what I remember it basically circumvents getting an LEO signoff.

 

[mettle]

Yeah, by the response here it's not a common route I would bet. Or just not known here. I'll go to the guy 'out west' with the real firearms questions. He runs the right guns, and he usually has the right answers.

 

[slackerisme]

Yeah, by the response here it's not a common route I would bet. Or just not known here. I'll go to the guy 'out west' with the real firearms questions. He runs the right guns, and he usually has the right answers.

Or you can do a search for threads in the Class III forum with the word "trust" in them. I can up with these....

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/class_iii_nfa/34502-making_a_trust.html


https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/class_iii_nfa/27669-has_anyone_setup_an_nfa_trust.html

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/class_iii_nfa/23605-trust_question.html

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/class_iii_nfa/25293-interview_with_david_goldman_from_nfa_gun_trust_lawyer_blog.html

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/class_iii_nfa/19831-atf_is_beginning_to_regulate_trusts.html

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/class_iii_nfa/14241-living_trust_for_nfa_sbr.html

Hope it helps.

 

[mettle]

A lot of reading, I am a condenced kinda guy. I'll peruse it, thanks!

 

[Lawguns]

If it is just for you I would start a trust. I bought the $20 cd at staples and used it to make one. I would not go the route of the LLC because that is a company that has business reporting requirements to the state that the trust does not normally have unless your trust is doing business. The bonus is that if you have multiple trust officers listed any one of them can be in possession of the weapon as opposed to it being owned by an individual.

 

[minuteman32]

I did a trust specifically for NFA items, so my wife or I could possess them. I used a Suzi Orman CD/DVD and the only additional thing I had to do was create a "schedual A" (typed out "Schedule A" on the top & listed the items I was purchasing (item, make, model, serial #) in Word & print it off. I saved a copy on a flash drive, as well.

 

[Para45]

Yeah definitely do the research on this, but it's a viable way to go especially if your CLEO is not NFA friendly!!

 

[mettle]

There needs to be a good 'sticky' made by some who has been down the path, that can help someone like myself pull all the info together to eliminate any hangups.

 

[sporter]

Here is about the best write up I have seen on NFA trusts:

www.86th.org - Getting started in NFA with a Trust

 

[mettle]

Here is about the best write up I have seen on NFA trusts:

www.86th.org - Getting started in NFA with a Trust

You are awesome as usual!

 

[CountryBoy19]

All I have to say is don't go cheap. It may cost you in the end. I was tempted to do the Quicken trust and all those "fill in the blank" trusts, but I chickened out. I was tempted because of finanancial reasons; I couldn't afford a good trust AND the NFA items that I wanted. I decided to just save up until I could afford to do it right. The NFA toys game isn't cheap, so don't try to make it something that it isn't. I did a "Gun Trust Lawyer.com" trust for $600 and had it all done for me with no additional worries.

Just recently there was a case where a guy had purchased 1 or 2 NFA items on a homemade trust. He applied for another and the ATF caught a mistake that made his trust invalid. They attempted to confiscate his NFA items because of that mistake. After he paid big bucks for a lawyer he was luckily able to keep his NFA items and clear things up with the ATF. Is it really worth it to you? If you go cheap, and make a mistake, you may lose a whole lot more than that $600 would've cost for the trust. At a minimum you'll have lawyer fees and you may even lose your toys. So just ask yourself if its worth $600 for peace of mind.

 

[JosephR]

All I have to say is don't go cheap. It may cost you in the end. I was tempted to do the Quicken trust and all those "fill in the blank" trusts, but I chickened out. I was tempted because of finanancial reasons; I couldn't afford a good trust AND the NFA items that I wanted. I decided to just save up until I could afford to do it right. The NFA toys game isn't cheap, so don't try to make it something that it isn't. I did a "Gun Trust Lawyer.com" trust for $600 and had it all done for me with no additional worries.

Just recently there was a case where a guy had purchased 1 or 2 NFA items on a homemade trust. He applied for another and the ATF caught a mistake that made his trust invalid. They attempted to confiscate his NFA items because of that mistake. After he paid big bucks for a lawyer he was luckily able to keep his NFA items and clear things up with the ATF. Is it really worth it to you? If you go cheap, and make a mistake, you may lose a whole lot more than that $600 would've cost for the trust. At a minimum you'll have lawyer fees and you may even lose your toys. So just ask yourself if its worth $600 for peace of mind.

So "going cheap" would have hurt you how exactly? I don't get it.

Too bad mettle has me on ignore. I could give him a TON of info and help on forming a Trust through Quicken. It's confusing at first but simple once you get the terms straight.

I could also tell him what's different about the forms (1 and 4) when doing a Trust and how those are filled out.

Oh well...

 

[MACHINEGUN]

 

[JosephR]

Thanks. I knew what he meant but couldn't type what I meant lol!

 

[VUPDblue]

All I have to say is don't go cheap. It may cost you in the end. I was tempted to do the Quicken trust and all those "fill in the blank" trusts, but I chickened out. I was tempted because of finanancial reasons; I couldn't afford a good trust AND the NFA items that I wanted. I decided to just save up until I could afford to do it right. The NFA toys game isn't cheap, so don't try to make it something that it isn't. I did a "Gun Trust Lawyer.com" trust for $600 and had it all done for me with no additional worries.

Just recently there was a case where a guy had purchased 1 or 2 NFA items on a homemade trust. He applied for another and the ATF caught a mistake that made his trust invalid. They attempted to confiscate his NFA items because of that mistake. After he paid big bucks for a lawyer he was luckily able to keep his NFA items and clear things up with the ATF. Is it really worth it to you? If you go cheap, and make a mistake, you may lose a whole lot more than that $600 would've cost for the trust. At a minimum you'll have lawyer fees and you may even lose your toys. So just ask yourself if its worth $600 for peace of mind.

Linky please. I have not heard of this one...

 

[Lawguns]

Linky please. I have not heard of this one...

Ditto request. I have heard of the ATF holding guns pending the corrections of paperwork but I have not heard of people loosing NFA items for incorrect paperwork. Well other then me but I did not loose it the ATF just changed its status and that is a whole other story.

 

[VUPDblue]

Yeah, I think what he speaks of is internet lore. I haunt pretty much all the big NFA boards and I haven't seen any more than lore of this particular rumor.


ETA: All the above being said, I'd not heard of anyone getting a home visit from BATFE for an "inspection" until recently either...

 

[CountryBoy19]

Seriously? You guys hadn't heard about this? It was all over arfcom for a while. As far as I know it hasn't been disproved, and David Goldman was talking about it as well so I doubt that it is just "internet lore" but I guess I could always be wrong; it wouldn't be the first time.

The BATFE is allegedly trying to seize NFA items from an Invalid Trust - AR15.COM


Pay attention to the Updates on this one. David Goldman states that "A Gun Trust Lawyer reviewed, amended, and restated the trust in question" The all caps "Gun Trust Lawyer" leads me to believe he means a lawyer from guntrustlawyer.com/Apple Law Firm, which I believe he runs. So basically he is stating, "A lawyer from my firm reviewed, amended, and restated the trust in question". I think this is pretty sound evidence that it wasn't a fake.
Prince Law Offices

This is the original post that was found on subguns but later removed because people thought it was a hoax:

I will try to make this as short an concise as possible. About 2 years ago, I formed a trust using Quicken. Shortly thereafter, I purchased a Mac-11 and a suppressor for the trust and in the trust's name. I only submitted a certificate of trust, not the entire trust, and it was approved. I recently submitted a Form 1 to make an SBR in the trust's name. My Form was kicked back because I hadn't suppplied the entire trust document. I then sent in the entire trust.



Today, my wife called me distraught that the ATF called looking for me. From what she was able to understand from the conversation, the ATF was calling to ask the location of my Mac-11 and suppressor because "they are in the possession of an unlawful entity." She didn't understand what they were saying and has no idea about trusts, so she asked what they meant. The agent apparently informed her that the NFA items were registered to a trust, where I was the trustee, and that the trust was invalid. Moreover, they want me to call them to set up a time for me to turn over the items.



I have called a local attorney that my dealer told me is well versed in firearms law, the NFA, and NFA Trusts. However, his secretary told me that he is in court until later today. Anyway, I am obviously very concerned and have no experience in dealing with the ATF. Has anyone had similar experiences? Am I going to lose my firearms? I am going to a law library to see if I can get some help trying to search this issue until I hear from the attorney. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.





Say what you will, I'm not a lawyer, but there is just something very disconcerting about this issue, and the "nonspecific" language that is used in those general, blanket trusts. Yeah, it may work, yeah, your items probably won't get confiscated, but is it really worth it? If this happens to you it will cost you more than the original trust would have, plus a whole world of headaches and worrying, so why take the risk? Like I said before, if you have the money to spend on NFA items, then why not have a good trust made by a good lawyer that knows what he is doing? You aren't going to buy too many NFA items for the one time cost of the trust. I could list on one hand the NFA items cheaper than $600 including transfer.

 

[JosephR]

How was it they determined it wasn't a legitimate trust?

I had originally only sent a certificate of trust but by the time I did my SBR, it was required to do the whole thing.

So, they've seen my trust. I am sure it had something to do with who he placed in the appropriate places and not something Quicken did...