slackerisme
Expert
Did you find
www.86th.org - Getting started in NFA with a Trust to be accurate Joseph?
If not, what changes would you recommend?
-
Be sure to read this post! Beware of scammers. https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/classifieds-new-online-payment-guidelines-rules-paypal-venmo-zelle-etc.511734/
Tell me about a trust or LLC for NFA stuff
- Thread starter mettle
- Start date
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Did you find
www.86th.org - Getting started in NFA with a Trust to be accurate Joseph?
If not, what changes would you recommend?
The spelling errors are killing me.
This is not accurate:
No Uniform Requirements
Some examiners require only the Certification of Trust, some require the Declaration, some require the Schedule A,B,C, some even require the Assignment of Property. You will have multiple people responding with different answers if you ever ask which of those documents are required. This is because their examiner may or may not require that document. This is probably one of the less worrisome issues because it can be alleviated by sending all the possible paperwork in with your forms. If you choose not to, the worst the BATFE can do is to ask for the forms and not approve you until you send them in.
They require all paperwork now. Certificate of Trust is not good enough.
BATFE´s positions and requirements are subject to change
From talking to those who are more experienced in the nuances of the NFA and have been doing it for a long time, they will tell you that the BATFE´s requirements and position is subject to change. As of now, the BATFE does not require CLEO signoff or fingerprint cards for Form 1´s and Form 4´s but nothing is stopping them from changing their position on this. It would be less likely for them to change their position on this for LLC´s and Corporations because they have been working with these for a very long time and are very familiar with the process.
Um, highly unlikely. There is noone to fingerprint and the CLEO can't look up the "trust" to see if it has a criminal record...
If not already done, add the rifle to the trust with an assignment of property and by adding it to your Schedule A (or B or C), reference it only by Manufacturer and Serial #, NFA status and barrel length is not necessary. Omitting these details can be helpful and negates having to update the trust when the Title I weapon turns into a Title II weapon.
This is WRONG for a FACT. It is NOT recommended to add a rifle made by XXX company to the trust. You WILL have to remove it once you get your forms approved. At that point, the rifle is manufactured by YOU not company XXX even though their name is still on it. You can add the silencer to the trust as soon as you pay for it and it's in the dealer's hands. The trust owns it.
Copy of Schedule A,B,C, with the DoubleStar AR15 in the Schedule A
Again, WRONG.
Either before or after the Form 1 is approved you will need to engrave the lower receiver with the information in Box 4h. You can abbreviate “Revocable Living Trust” as “Trust” or “RLT” and you can abbreviate your State accordingly. It is generally accepted to use the initials of the people in the trust as well, many do “J. Smith & J. Smith Trust”, I did “JS & JS Trust”, some do “Jane S. & John S. Trust”, etc. In our example, we are engraving
WOW how wrong! Engrave that Fugger BEFORE the stamp is on the paperwork! When the paperwork is signed and stamped, it becomes an SBR and MUST be engraved at that exact point in time or before. Waiting for the papers and then taking it to an engraver means you have an SBR that is not meeting all requirements!!!
This guy is trying to be helpful but is stupid...
I choose to get the engraving done before the form is approved because after the form is approved, you cannot leave the receiver at an engraver since it is a Title II weapon.
Send the receiver to Orion Arms
WTF? They have the ability to handle short barreled rifles legally.
Q. What do I do with my Trust if I move out of state?
A. Generally speaking, when moving to another state with a Revocable Living Trust, you dont have to do anything. <A class=ref href="http://www.86th.org/?id=nfa-trust#ref-6">[6] The next time time you are required to send out a Certification of Trust, you would print out a new one with the new address since this shows the grantors current address. There may or may not be additional state requirements you might need to look into, this will depend on the state.
It is probably a very good idea to consult with a NFA experienced lawyer to ensure you dont have to do anything. When you fill out your forms to move from state to state, the BATFE will not approve anything that conflicts with Federal, State or Local laws, so there is some reassurance for you. [7]
Yeah no kidding? YOU MUST FILL OUT A FORM TO TAKE A SILENCER OR SBR ACROSS STATE LINES. It's NOT both but one requires it. I don't remember which. Check on it.
Basically, you´ll probably be ok but see a lawyer anyway. It wont cost that much and its peace of mind.
No kidding? At this point I might as well consult the lawyer for everything considering the errors here...
And I do believe ALL TRUSTEES CAN HAVE ACCESS TO THE TITLE II ITEMS, NOT JUST THE SINGLE GRANTOR, HENCE THE BENEFIT OF A TRUST OVER CORP.
This is not accurate:
No Uniform Requirements
Some examiners require only the Certification of Trust, some require the Declaration, some require the Schedule A,B,C, some even require the Assignment of Property. You will have multiple people responding with different answers if you ever ask which of those documents are required. This is because their examiner may or may not require that document. This is probably one of the less worrisome issues because it can be alleviated by sending all the possible paperwork in with your forms. If you choose not to, the worst the BATFE can do is to ask for the forms and not approve you until you send them in.
They require all paperwork now. Certificate of Trust is not good enough.
BATFE´s positions and requirements are subject to change
From talking to those who are more experienced in the nuances of the NFA and have been doing it for a long time, they will tell you that the BATFE´s requirements and position is subject to change. As of now, the BATFE does not require CLEO signoff or fingerprint cards for Form 1´s and Form 4´s but nothing is stopping them from changing their position on this. It would be less likely for them to change their position on this for LLC´s and Corporations because they have been working with these for a very long time and are very familiar with the process.
Um, highly unlikely. There is noone to fingerprint and the CLEO can't look up the "trust" to see if it has a criminal record...
If not already done, add the rifle to the trust with an assignment of property and by adding it to your Schedule A (or B or C), reference it only by Manufacturer and Serial #, NFA status and barrel length is not necessary. Omitting these details can be helpful and negates having to update the trust when the Title I weapon turns into a Title II weapon.
This is WRONG for a FACT. It is NOT recommended to add a rifle made by XXX company to the trust. You WILL have to remove it once you get your forms approved. At that point, the rifle is manufactured by YOU not company XXX even though their name is still on it. You can add the silencer to the trust as soon as you pay for it and it's in the dealer's hands. The trust owns it.
Copy of Schedule A,B,C, with the DoubleStar AR15 in the Schedule A
Again, WRONG.
Either before or after the Form 1 is approved you will need to engrave the lower receiver with the information in Box 4h. You can abbreviate “Revocable Living Trust” as “Trust” or “RLT” and you can abbreviate your State accordingly. It is generally accepted to use the initials of the people in the trust as well, many do “J. Smith & J. Smith Trust”, I did “JS & JS Trust”, some do “Jane S. & John S. Trust”, etc. In our example, we are engraving
WOW how wrong! Engrave that Fugger BEFORE the stamp is on the paperwork! When the paperwork is signed and stamped, it becomes an SBR and MUST be engraved at that exact point in time or before. Waiting for the papers and then taking it to an engraver means you have an SBR that is not meeting all requirements!!!
This guy is trying to be helpful but is stupid...
I choose to get the engraving done before the form is approved because after the form is approved, you cannot leave the receiver at an engraver since it is a Title II weapon.
Send the receiver to Orion Arms
WTF? They have the ability to handle short barreled rifles legally.
Q. What do I do with my Trust if I move out of state?
A. Generally speaking, when moving to another state with a Revocable Living Trust, you dont have to do anything. <A class=ref href="http://www.86th.org/?id=nfa-trust#ref-6">[6] The next time time you are required to send out a Certification of Trust, you would print out a new one with the new address since this shows the grantors current address. There may or may not be additional state requirements you might need to look into, this will depend on the state.
It is probably a very good idea to consult with a NFA experienced lawyer to ensure you dont have to do anything. When you fill out your forms to move from state to state, the BATFE will not approve anything that conflicts with Federal, State or Local laws, so there is some reassurance for you. [7]
Yeah no kidding? YOU MUST FILL OUT A FORM TO TAKE A SILENCER OR SBR ACROSS STATE LINES. It's NOT both but one requires it. I don't remember which. Check on it.
Basically, you´ll probably be ok but see a lawyer anyway. It wont cost that much and its peace of mind.
No kidding? At this point I might as well consult the lawyer for everything considering the errors here...
And I do believe ALL TRUSTEES CAN HAVE ACCESS TO THE TITLE II ITEMS, NOT JUST THE SINGLE GRANTOR, HENCE THE BENEFIT OF A TRUST OVER CORP.
CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
I don't mean to be a jerk, but this is the ATF, they're under the DOJ now, and they have unlimited legal resources paid for by you and me. Its pretty simple how they determine it is invalid. All trusts get sent to the legal department for review, prior to approval of forms.
The rest of my response is in red below.
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You need to stop now. You are polluting a thread full of facts. You are 100% wrong on your first two points, plain and simple. You are making up "rules" based on your own flawed logic.
The SBR (as a firearm) is manufactured by YOU for the TRUST. It doesn't matter if the RECEIVER was made by someone else and it doesn't matter that they are transferred as the original weapon. My Noveske made lower is NOW AN SBR MANUFACTURED BY THE JSR REVOCABLE LIVING TRUST. There is no way around that fact.
The approved form with affixed stamp makes it an SBR. AT THAT POINT IN TIME THAT RECEIVER IS REGISTERED IN THE NFA REGISTRY AS A TITLE II WEAPON WHICH MEANS IT MUST MEET THE LEGAL REQUIREMENTS. It does NOT matter if you have a barrel on it or what barrel you decide to put on it. AT THAT POINT IN TIME, IT IS TITLE II. YES, installing a short barrel on a regular receiver DOES make it an SBR but that is not the only way to make an SBR. That is making an illegal SBR. Affixing a stamp to a signed form is how to make a LEGAL SBR.
You have a trust with NFA items? Your method worked for you?
I'm not going to let this turn into an argument. I know that guy was wrong and posted how and why. I don't need you telling me you "believe" I'm wrong. If you think I am, research it and find out for sure before turning this messy please. People cannot afford to read three different things and go back and forth when they are trying to learn.
The SBR (as a firearm) is manufactured by YOU for the TRUST. It doesn't matter if the RECEIVER was made by someone else and it doesn't matter that they are transferred as the original weapon. My Noveske made lower is NOW AN SBR MANUFACTURED BY THE JSR REVOCABLE LIVING TRUST. There is no way around that fact.
The approved form with affixed stamp makes it an SBR. AT THAT POINT IN TIME THAT RECEIVER IS REGISTERED IN THE NFA REGISTRY AS A TITLE II WEAPON WHICH MEANS IT MUST MEET THE LEGAL REQUIREMENTS. It does NOT matter if you have a barrel on it or what barrel you decide to put on it. AT THAT POINT IN TIME, IT IS TITLE II. YES, installing a short barrel on a regular receiver DOES make it an SBR but that is not the only way to make an SBR. That is making an illegal SBR. Affixing a stamp to a signed form is how to make a LEGAL SBR.
You have a trust with NFA items? Your method worked for you?
I'm not going to let this turn into an argument. I know that guy was wrong and posted how and why. I don't need you telling me you "believe" I'm wrong. If you think I am, research it and find out for sure before turning this messy please. People cannot afford to read three different things and go back and forth when they are trying to learn.
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Furthermore, there exists no SBR for you to put in your trust before you submit the form and trust docs. When you get approved, that receiver is no longer a title I firearm made by company XXX. It's just a chunk of aluminum. That rifle no longer exists and needs to be removed. No sense in putting it in to begin with.
An SBR does not and CANNOT be "owned" by a trust prior to approval.
An SBR does not and CANNOT be "owned" by a trust prior to approval.
VUPDblue
Silencers Have NEVER Been Illegal !
This is correct. The company who machined the lower is irrelevant once it is an SBR. Once it is an SBR, whomever papered it as such is the manufacturer.
CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
My point exactly, it is not manufactured by the trust until you've been approved to manufacture it into an SBR. So how can you add it to your Schedule A as manufactured by the trust BEFORE you are approved? That is what you're suggesting people do. Add it to their schedule A prior to approval as already being manufactured by the trust.
The reason for adding the original Title I firearm to the schedule A is to prove that the trust owned the title i prior to being manufactured into a title ii. If the title i isn't first transferred to the trust, it can be argued in court that you personally owned the title i, and that it wasn't added to the trust until it was already manufactured as an SBR (which would require manufacturing for you, then transfer from you to the trust). If you transfer it into the trust and show it on the schedule A as already being manufactured, then it could be argued that the trust never owned it until after you have personally manufactured it into an SBR. Do you follow that? Do you see the importance of that, and why you can't show it on your schedule A until after approval?
Explain this to me, following your logic on when then item becomes Title II on a form 1 SBR, then a form 1 can would also need engraved the moment it is approved signed and stamped. But I can't legally make it, or have any parts until after its been approved. So I need to have it engraved before I even make it? Thats pretty funny, I've never heard something so ridiculous. I'd like to see proof (preferably in letter form ATF) that it needs to be engraved prior to approval. You are one of a select few that is very insistent that it does.
You can tell me to stop all I want. I've talked to the ATF about these issues, I've followed the topics on many boards and I'm not an idiot. I've done my research, its clear that you haven't (or things have changed since you have). Sure, some things I've said may have been slightly incorrect, no one person can truly know everything exactly especially when the ATF changes their mind every day. Yes, I do have a trust with NFA items in it.
Honestly I don't care one bit about you. From every reply I've read from you on this entire forum you are an arrogant know-it-all and you're always right. Maybe its time for you to chill out a little bit and get the point that sometimes you might just be wrong. You've been very lucky to stay off my ignore list up until this point. But I'm tired of it, I'll leave it go for a little bit to see if we can clear this up, but after that I'll be ignoring your posts.
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WTF? Ignore me? Fine. I'm LUCKY to stay off of your ignore list? I don't care if you read what I write. It bounces right off of you anyway.
VUPDBlue just verified something you were so insistent on as being wrong according to me.
I only speak up when I have info on something and I don't back down. That's why I look like a know it all. I don't ramble at the mouth on every topic like some people, allowing myself to be known as right sometimes and wrong other times.
I've spoken to examiners AND agents about this info and it was within the last year.
CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
Now that I've gone back and read what you said I think I understand what you're saying. I just edited my post to better reflect what I'm trying to say. If you read my last post again you might understand more.
VUPDBlue just verified something that we all agree on so what is your point? I never said I disagreed with that. I disagreed with what I thought you were saying was to add the Title II as being manufactured by you to your schedule A prior to approval.
You only speak up when you have info and you know its right? I believe on one occasion I proved you incorrect in the past, I'll have to do some digging to find that thread.
"I don't ramble at the mouth on every topic like some people, allowing myself to be known as right sometimes and wrong other times. " Well it must be denial then, because I think you've been wrong before. And nobody is perfect, so basically you're saying you've never been wrong before? Slightly amusing and sad all at the same time.
Oh I HAVE been wrong and I do admit it. I'm just explaining why it always seems I'm a know it all.
Don't hide behind an excuse of "I misunderstood". You were saying something completely different and I didn't say anything near what you thought I said.
It's still your fault you didn't read correctly or whatever it was and continued.
Don't hide behind an excuse of "I misunderstood". You were saying something completely different and I didn't say anything near what you thought I said.
It's still your fault you didn't read correctly or whatever it was and continued.
CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
I'm not hiding behind anything. If you go back and read my arguing point my point was not to add it to your schedule A as being manufactured by you until you actually manufacture it (w/ approval). If still think I'm just hiding behind an excuse of "I misunderstood" then you clearly can't logically comprehend what I'm saying. I was arguing not to add it in (when I thought you were saying to do so). If I didn't read incorrectly and it was just an excuse, then why would I have been arguing against a statement that you didn't even make?
Did you read my last post on the edited part I told you about? I still think you're wrong in not adding it in at all. I think that edit on the other post will clarify why the Title I needs added to the schedule A prior to approval.
CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
This is exactly what I added to the other post when I edited it: The reason for adding the original Title I firearm to the schedule A is to prove that the trust owned the title i prior to being manufactured into a title ii. If the title i isn't first transferred to the trust, it can be argued in court that you personally owned the title i, and that it wasn't added to the trust until it was already manufactured as an SBR (which would require manufacturing for you, then transfer from you to the trust). If you transfer it into the trust and show it on the schedule A as already being manufactured, then it could be argued that the trust never owned it until after you have personally manufactured it into an SBR. Do you follow that? Do you see the importance of that, and why you can't show it on your schedule A until after approval?
David Goldman says that you must do this and I called the ATF to confirm 5 months ago. They said that is the proper way to do it.
