Tactical and USPSA don't mix???

[slow1911s]

I've read here, and other places, that some people shy away from USPSA (or IDPA while we're at it) because they have a concern that it may contaminate what defensive shooting skills they've acquired through many hours of training, not to mention the money.

I don't get it. I don't.

Responses like this lead me to believe that those who are adverse to USPSA and similar games believe that when they show up, they go through some sort of sinister conversion. A transformation that makes people dump empty or partially full magazines on the ground as if the shooter has no choice in the matter. That there is some fog on the range that makes using props like cover a capital offense. That doing a 200 deg threat scan will turn their G17 w/ light into a cigarette lighter or that your 511 vest will turn into a pink tutu.

I've never heard people say these things, but by action alone that is what I conclude.

Then there are the comments about the way way we engage in a British Parliament style shouting match on every stage. Making it sound as if a match takes 4 hours, 3:58 of it is spent arguing. Where does this happen? Where? I've been at this for 7 years and I've never seen it. Are there arguments occasionally? Sure. Why? Because people are competitive, that's my only conclusion. Some make that mens rea out to be a condition on par with leprosy.

Again - I don't get it.

Here's your USPSA Mythbuster

•Can I use my carry gear? Sure. As long as the holster retains the pistol and covers the trigger guard.
•Can I use my carry gun? Sure. As long as it is chambed for 9x19 or .38 Special or larger.
•Can I wear a cover garment? Yes.
•Can I use props like cover? If you want to.
•Do I have to do speed reloads? You don't have to.
•Can I use tactical sequence or order? If you want to, sure.
•Can I shoot a target more than twice? Knock yourself out.
•Can I do a threat scan? If it makes sense for you, sure. As long as your muzzle stays down range.
•Can I shoot from a kneeling position? I don't know, can you?
•Can I shoot with only one hand? This might get a bit sticky. USPSA is entirely about safe gun handing. I imagine if you can complete your manual of arms and keep the muzzle down range and not sweep yourself you can. It probably depends.
​

Show up to a match. Tell the RO what you're going to be doing. 90% of our stages are freestyle. If you don't care about the score, then do whatever you want as long you follow the range commands and safety rules.

There is no reason you can't practice most and maybe all of what you've learned at your local USPSA match. No reason.

 

[Coach]

I was an athlete at one time. I have been around the sport of wrestling since 1982 as either a wrestler, coach or an official from junior high to the college ranks. There are a lot of reasons why boys and young men give as to why they do not participate in that sport, and there are lots of reasons they don't participate in USPSA. It is my experience and opinion that the stated reason is seldom the reason in either case. The truth can be a painful thing.

It is a lot easier to hide in the shadows and to criticize than it is to step up to the line and Make Ready. I firmly believe that in many cases people do not participate in USPSA because they don't want their butt handed to them publicly. It is harder to feel superior if the scoresheet is there telling a different story. I know it is the case in the other sport regardless of what people say.

When you have stood in the middle of a wrestling mat with only 2 mm of lycra between your testicles and the rest of the world facing someone who is bigger, faster and stronger, shooting a stage with the use of great equipment is not that tough. I guess I am just lucky for the experiences I gained early in life, and I don't have to avoid pressure situations like the plague. My two cents.

 

[Steve MI]

I think eeryone should should matches to a degree and get out of it what they feel they need.

there is something great in watching top shooters move like marbles on glass table top its trully an art of skill and athletics.

and at the same time very humbling and encouraging knowing that yes I to could be that good if.....

 

[x10]

I mainly agree with coach,

I've even seen people on purpose bring inadequate equipment so that they have a tangible reason to not do well

many people can't take loosing ins something they have deluded themselves into thinking they are good at.

how many times have we heard the 500yd SKS story or something like it where people don't want to admit their full of it.

Plus the equipment thing, everyone out there buys the best gun on the market and they got the best one of the best brand and they don't want to take the chance that the enemy brand of firearm just beat them. People want substitute equipment for skill, practice, and hard work. It takes a lot of effort for some people to compete.

In that way I think the shooting community sometimes lets people down, I would like to see one of the bigger clubs with a large following dedicate one time slot or group run through to no score, Just let the guys run through it paste show them their time but don't write anything down, I wonder if that would kick a few guys in the butt hard enough to get them out there . Its a thought

 

[Scutter01]

Don't worry. You'll see the same arguments in just about any sport. I hear people panning point fighting in martial arts because it's not indicative of a real "street fight". Well, no kidding. It's not a street fight. It's a game. It's perfectly possible to play a game without ruining your ability to play "for keeps". I would say it even enhances your abilities. The techniques are still the same, even if they're executed differently.

 

[BillD]

Of course, then you have the guys who's guns are so pretty (I call em gun fondlers) they can't bear the thought of putting them in a holster.

When shooting IDPA, I was told a couple times by guys that in a SD situation, they would slow way down and make sure they got their hits so that's what they practiced at the IDPA match.

I would look at the scores and tell them, OK, I shot faster AND more accurately than you. It's not your tactics that suck, it's your skills. They don't like to hear that.

The average American male thinks he was born being able to drive, fornicate and shoot at a very high level with no instruction.

How many LEO's do you see at matches? We have had a couple at Wildcat years ago. They were so far behind the curve of 55 year old fat guys, they couldn't get over the ego thing and come back.

And with the cost of ammo, gas, guns, reloading components, ( you know, that garage full of stuff you have) it's an expensive game. It's much cheaper to buy a 100 pk of WWB once a month and spend more money on SWAT magazine. It's much easier to go home after work and play with your guns than it is to pack everything up and go to the range.

I remember years back having a conversation with 3 guys hanging out on the tailgate of my truck at a match. I told them I had just spent over $800 on a Dillon 650 and components. One guy looked me right in the eye like I was a fool and said, "I could buy 2 guns for that money".

I told him, "Oh great, two more guns you won't be able to shoot."

You can't buy competency. It takes a lot of money and a long time at the range. Money and time well spent, IMO.

 

[IndyGunSafety]

My girlfriend and I shoot what we carry, and use the holsters we carry with for IDPA. So many good points here I can't begin to quote them all. Good thread Slow. It's only a matter of time before the 'ninja gun experts' get on here and tell us what we are lacking.

 

[Litlratt]

I affectionately refer to them as Tacticants.

 

[Joe Williams]

snip
There is no reason you can't practice most and maybe all of what you've learned at your local USPSA match. No reason.

Except you won't win, or even be competitive. And as you pointed out, people are competitive. However, as has been addressed elsewhere, the skill employed to be competitive DO translate to good training. Learning to hit without thinking about hitting, hitting on the move, learning effortless and fast magazine changes, problem solving under pressure, the different scenarios faced... these are all skills needed to survive a fight. It simply is not necessary, or fun for that matter, to constantly drill in preset scenarios, which is what happens in dedicated training classes. It's important to do so, but gaming hones to a fine point the ability to actually use your gun.

 

[VUPDblue]

My girlfriend and I shoot what we carry, and use the holsters we carry with for IDPA. So many good points here I can't begin to quote them all. Good thread Slow. It's only a matter of time before the 'ninja gun experts' get on here and tell us what we are lacking.

I affectionately refer to them as Tacticants.

You guys are crazy. Why on earth would you want to shoot all those pretty guns? Go put a couple clips full of boolits through them and that's good enough. You don't see Navy Seals playing these silly games do you? Those $800 loading machines are worthless. You simply can NOT do better than Winchester White Box. Winchester is a big company and they know their stuff. The ammo they produce can shoot a fly's wings off at 200 yards every time as long as you are shooting it in an expensive gun.

 

[shooter521]

You guys are crazy. Why on earth would you want to shoot all those pretty guns? Go put a couple clips full of boolits through them and that's good enough. You don't see Navy Seals playing these silly games do you? Those $800 loading machines are worthless. You simply can NOT do better than Winchester White Box. Winchester is a big company and they know their stuff. The ammo they produce can shoot a fly's wings off at 200 yards every time as long as you are shooting it in an expensive gun.

Bad Mod! Bad!

 

[Cwood]

You guys are crazy. Why on earth would you want to shoot all those pretty guns? Go put a couple clips full of boolits through them and that's good enough. You don't see Navy Seals playing these silly games do you? Those $800 loading machines are worthless. You simply can NOT do better than Winchester White Box. Winchester is a big company and they know their stuff. The ammo they produce can shoot a fly's wings off at 200 yards every time as long as you are shooting it in an expensive gun.

 

[PsYcHo SqUiRrEl]

When you have stood in the middle of a wrestling mat with only 2 mm of lycra between your testicles and the rest of the world facing someone who is bigger, faster and stronger, shooting a stage with the use of great equipment is not that tough.

How about shooting a stage while wearing 2mm of lycra? Sorry, couldn't resist!

 

[IndyGunSafety]

Except you won't win, or even be competitive.

Really? I am in IDPA. I have won stages (All classses combined) and I have won my class overall. I just shoot a stock Taurus PT 1911. No fancy guns or ammo. We love the Winchester, or Federal from wally world. It's what you make of it.

 

[HICKMAN]

When you have stood in the middle of a wrestling mat with only 2 mm of lycra between your testicles and the rest of the world facing someone who is bigger, faster and stronger, shooting a stage with the use of great equipment is not that tough. I guess I am just lucky for the experiences I gained early in life, and I don't have to avoid pressure situations like the plague. My two cents.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why we call him COACH

 

[m_deaner]

Really? I am in IDPA. I have won stages (All classses combined) and I have won my class overall. I just shoot a stock Taurus PT 1911. No fancy guns or ammo. We love the Winchester, or Federal from wally world. It's what you make of it.

He's talking about USPSA, as the subject line of the thread is "Tactical and USPSA Don't Mix".

I agree that it'd be hard to be competitive in USPSA doing IDPA-style "tactical" reloads, making "tactical" use of cover; etc. But in IDPA that's part of the game (as I understand it - I've never shot IDPA).

 

[Joe Williams]

He's talking about USPSA, as the subject line of the thread is "Tactical and USPSA Don't Mix".

I agree that it'd be hard to be competitive in USPSA doing IDPA-style "tactical" reloads, making "tactical" use of cover; etc. But in IDPA that's part of the game (as I understand it - I've never shot IDPA).

Hard to be competitive, not hard to have fun! I used to sometimes game it, sometimes shoot more "tactically." Wasn't uncommon for me to show up and compete with the webgear I often wore on duty, including my full flap Bianchi holster.

 

[slow1911s]

Some appear to be missing the point I'm trying to make. That point is, even if the game part of USPSA matches (or IDPA) doesn't attract you there is still a a good shooting challenge waiting, ripe for the taking. Shoot for no score or time. Do those things that Capt Campbell or Lewis teaches, just follow the safety rules.

This was posted with shooter521 in mind.

 

[shooter521]

Shoot for no score or time. Do those things that Capt Campbell or Lewis teaches, just follow the safety rules.

This was posted with shooter521 in mind.

Well, since you're calling me out...

Why would I travel and pay money to shoot a match for no time/no score, when I can set up stages, run drills of my choosing, or practice at my home range for nothing but the cost of my annual membership? To use a structured match for that purpose while ignoring match rules/time/scoring seems like trying to drive a round peg into a square hole, and would not be fair to those who are there to play the game.

I have nothing against competitive shooting in and of itself; as I have explained to you before, I have done my share in various disciplines over the years. If and when I do choose to compete, I will do so within the rules and structure of that discipline. I'm not out to try to make ANY sport into something it's not.

ETA - Ken's the Sheriff now, BTW...

 

[slow1911s]

While I did call you out I'm also acknowledging the mentality of similar minded folks.

Why would you want to? Maybe more elaborate stages. Steel targets of different sizes and presentations. Moving targets. Stuff most folks don't have access to.

I'm not making an attack here. Rather, extending a olive branch, letting people know there is room for you right along those of us that like to go Mach 2.