SWAT Team invades home and kills dog for a joint.

[downzero]

I'm never going to get to 4k post by August if you guys wont argue with me.

Put back the picture of your wife's rack and I'll consider it.

 

[downzero]

I'm sick of the outright, deliberate dishonesty of the argument that druggies affect only themselves. It's a lie, pure and simple.

I haven't made that argument, and I don't see most of the libertarians here making it.

There is a tremendous social cost of drug use, especially addiction. There are also social costs involved in almost everything we do, including driving, shooting, merely owning firearms, etc. This is not justification for prohibition.

When a "druggie" violates the rights of someone else, you won't find any libertarian arguing that they should get a free pass. That's the problem with your criticism...it doesn't hold water because it characterizes libertarians as "pro-druggie" instead of "pro-freedom."

In other words, you can't win with this, because it is disingenuous, and you're just as wrong after you tried this red herring as before.

 

[Joe Williams]

snip
In other words, you can't win with this, because it is disingenuous, and you're just as wrong after you tried this red herring as before.

No, I'm not disingenuous. You are being, as I said, deliberately dishonest. Every time some pro-druggie says "what they do with their own body is their business," they are making the argument that druggies affect only themselves. It's a lie, as is your attempt to gloss over that fact.

 

[jbombelli]

The federal government simply decided they didn't have to do that anymore.

Controlled Substances Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fun game, huh? Of course, the 9 Ha-vurd lawyers agree as well.

No, I'm not disingenuous. You are being, as I said, deliberately dishonest. Every time some pro-druggie says "what they do with their own body is their business," they are making the argument that druggies affect only themselves. It's a lie, as is your attempt to gloss over that fact.

So maybe you can explain.

The single guy that has half a dozen plants in his closet, who goes home after work and smokes a couple joints, sits there on the couch, watches TV, eats a pizza and minds his own business, harms YOU exactly how? How does he harm YOU any more than the guy who goes home and downs a sixpack?

 

[sporty_live]

No, I'm not disingenuous. You are being, as I said, deliberately dishonest. Every time some pro-druggie says "what they do with their own body is their business," they are making the argument that druggies affect only themselves. It's a lie, as is your attempt to gloss over that fact.

Please explain how the use of marijuana on a personal recreational level affects everyone around that person. Please also explain how recreational marijuana use is so much worse than recreational alcohol use? You cannot argue that the overindulgence of alcohol affects those around that person far greater than that of marijuana.

If the 21st Amendment didnt repeal prohibition I have no doubt you would be on your soapbox spouting about how bad alcohol is.

Philistines...

 

[j706]

Oh great now we have a bunch of pro druggies on a gun site. Ain't that just lovely?

 

[downzero]

No, I'm not disingenuous. You are being, as I said, deliberately dishonest. Every time some pro-druggie says "what they do with their own body is their business," they are making the argument that druggies affect only themselves. It's a lie, as is your attempt to gloss over that fact.

Nonsense. There is no necessary connection between the social costs of drug use and ALL use of drugs. Assuming one is where you get it wrong. Plenty of productive members of our society use illegal drugs every day.

Alcohol kills more than all illegal drugs combined. If you want to talk about social costs of addiction and drug use, I'd be glad to have the debate. But don't suggest that illegal drugs are somehow different than things that are already legal.

I have a degree in economics. I am perfectly willing and able to examine statistical evidence of costs and benefits. If you want to make your case with the data, I suggest that you do so.

I think you'll find, as I have, that the drug war is a miserable failure. You'll find, as I have, that it's irrational for it to continue, because it has costs that far exceed any benefit.

But what do I know? I've only read the documents, taken the course work, and examined the evidence for myself. Who am I to question someone who asserts without argument?

 

[rambone]

Oh great now we have a bunch of pro druggies on a gun site. Ain't that just lovely?

Not as lovely as the justification of big government.

 

[lashicoN]

No, I'm not disingenuous. You are being, as I said, deliberately dishonest. Every time some pro-druggie says "what they do with their own body is their business," they are making the argument that druggies affect only themselves. It's a lie, as is your attempt to gloss over that fact.

Tell it to them like it is, Mr. Williams. Yes, sir! It's like when those radical anarchists who want to take their own defense into their own hands stand up and demand that they have a right to own arms to defend themselves. Bah! That's what the government and military are for, that's what I always say. They always try to make the dishonest argument that "they have a right to keep and bear arms" and that they "won't go around killing people". They try to say that they will be responsible with their ASSAULT WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, when in reality it is a lie. Every time a firearm falls into the hands of an untrustworthy subject, he/she kills another subject with it! Subjects are far too irresponsible to have the privilege to do what they want with their own bodies, including defending their own bodies. That's what our King and God do for us, protect us! I completely agree, my Tory brother!

Dang it, sorry guys, he keeps sneaking in here. Joe, you sound like a big Statist, just so you know. And the fact that "Alternate reality Imperial England lashicoN" likes and agrees with you isn't looking too good for your argument. I don't think anyone said what you put in quotations. Care to dig that one up for us? What I've been saying is that we all have the RIGHT to do what we want to our own bodies, as long as we aren't harming others or putting others in harms way. People who smoke marijuana don't only affect themselves. They make many people laugh when they're doing stand up comedy, or stumbling around trying to explain something while they're high. People who shoot guns don't affect only themselves either. Neither do people who drink, or people who drive. Yet, we still let all of these other things go on. Even though hundreds of thousands of people are killed by the misuse of firearms, alcohol, tobacco, and automobiles.

How many people are killed each year by marijuana misuse, Joe Williams? How many "druggies" kill people compared to firearms, alcohol, tobacco, and automobile misuse?

 

[j706]

Nonsense. There is no necessary connection between the social costs of drug use and ALL use of drugs. Assuming one is where you get it wrong. Plenty of productive members of our society use illegal drugs every day.

Alcohol kills more than all illegal drugs combined. If you want to talk about social costs of addiction and drug use, I'd be glad to have the debate. But don't suggest that illegal drugs are somehow different than things that are already legal.

I have a degree in economics. I am perfectly willing and able to examine statistical evidence of costs and benefits. If you want to make your case with the data, I suggest that you do so.

I think you'll find, as I have, that the drug war is a miserable failure. You'll find, as I have, that it's irrational for it to continue, because it has costs that far exceed any benefit.

But what do I know? I've only read the documents, taken the course work, and examined the evidence for myself. Who am I to question someone who asserts without argument?

Oh you forgot to mention you are a veteran

 

[j706]

Tell the mothers whose kids died from heroin OD's that illegal drugs are harmless. Four kids in one weekend I might add. I was at two of them and had the un pleasant task of informing one family that their 16 year old wasn't coming home-ever!

Oh yea illegal drugs are great. I burn and will always burn anyone and everyone that I catch with illegal drugs. Yea even you. Like it or not. Only IDIOTS use illegal drugs!

 

[ThrottleJockey]

I might not side with the police if they had not "discovered a grinder, a pipe and a small amount of marijuana." But since they did discover that stuff, go go police, getting a little bit of drugs off the street is better than getting none at all.

Wow, that sure got you flamed! I'm going to step in on your defense.

Okay guys give the guy a break. This way of thinking is not his fault. Quite obviously he was born with.....

BTW, in most places today (in the US) a small amount of "Cannabis" is only an infraction. For crying out loud if you're gonna kill the family pet over it, at least call it what it is and lose the slang terms. Even cops need to demonstrate professionalism or at least that they know what the substance is.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Oh yea illegal drugs are great. I burn and will always burn anyone and everyone that I catch with illegal drugs. Yea even you. Like it or not. Only IDIOTS use illegal drugs!

So you would "burn" the guy with an $85 ticket? Um, get a mind of your own and stop drinking the kool-aid of the misinformed. Make yourself useful and go "burn" some j-walkers and why not just go ahead and burn the COTUS while you're at it. What a waste of oxygen.

 

[E5RANGER375]

BTW, in most places today (in the US) a small amount of "Cannabis" is only an infraction.

and in california, there is a bill being introduced to make it completely legal. and over 60% of voters support it. im sure it will pass, in a matter of time. I dont know how that state can be so wrong on other constitutional issues but be so right on this one, but its a step in the right direction. i still hope california falls into the ocean though

 

[E5RANGER375]

Oh yea illegal drugs are great. I burn and will always burn anyone and everyone that I catch with illegal drugs. Yea even you. Like it or not. Only IDIOTS use illegal drugs!

you arent the judge, jury or the executioner. your more like the ranch hand who brings the cow in for auction and possibly slaughter, but its not up to you what price it sells for or when it dies.
your supposed to present the facts and do your job, not out of anger or trying to get back at someone because you had the unpleasant task of informing a family their kid died, so now your on a mission to strike out and change the world. The only thing your gonna get as a police officer when you try to throw the book at someone (which isnt your job) is contempt from people. i think you have the wrong attitude on this.

 

[radonc73]

So, the kids that die of alcohol related issues are much easier to tell the parents about? You do know that there has NEVER been a case of someone ODing on weed, right? Maybe a few Cheeto bags were slaughtered but no people.
You can burn as many people as you like spinning your wheels trying to be a one person drug war, but there are REAL criminals out there. Rapists murders, armed robbers but you concentrate on the potheads.
Maybe we can eliminate other plants that grow wild if unchecked while we are at it like poison ivy and those who posses its sap. People die every year from poison ivy but we don't spend Billions on stoping it. What about the asshats that die from drinking gasoline one way or another. Shouldn't you concentrate on stopping the gas dealers from selling their death potion? Make a dynamic entery into speedway and prone everyone out.

 

[XMil]

It is hard for me to believe that so many of you have let yourselves become so mentally stunted. That you actually let yourselves believe that anyone who argues on behalf of the higher principle freedom, is really just "pro-drug", is sad to me.

If any of you actually cared to reduce harmful drug use, you would help find a way that might actually reduce it. Putting people in prison isn't working. THERE IS DRUG USE IN PRISONS. Education is probably the answer, it is working with smoking. Creating a modern Gestapo with thugs who don't mind endangering children, while they fight their modern Holy War isn't working either.

There is a rental house on my street, it an an otherwise good neighborhood. Drugs didn't ruin their lives. They ruined their lives by being idiots, the drug use is a side effect. They can sit over there, doing Meth to their hearts content, because you and I are paying their bills.

 

[XMil]

Tell the mothers whose kids died from heroin OD's that illegal drugs are harmless. Four kids in one weekend I might add. I was at two of them and had the un pleasant task of informing one family that their 16 year old wasn't coming home-ever!

Oh yea illegal drugs are great. I burn and will always burn anyone and everyone that I catch with illegal drugs. Yea even you. Like it or not. Only IDIOTS use illegal drugs!

Tell them the same thing you tell the parents of children who shot themselves. Be careful how much you buy into nanny state government, it is a monster that won't stop only when you want it too.

Idiots kill themselves from time to time. It is an unpleasant side-effect of life. I still don't want an all powerful government just so you don't have to "un pleasant" tasks.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Guys, seriously? This guy was a DRUG DEALER.... what has his dealings at his home done to his community? This wasn't about one (1) single joint that they found in his house. The Judge would laugh you out of his chambers if you asked him for a search warrant.

In Lake County you have to have at least 2-3 transactions (recordings on camera) before the prosecutor will even accept dealing charges. We hit a house this past Thursday in a neighborhood where we have had drive by shootings, recent rash of burglaries, and an armed home invasion that were linked to this guys house. The street was flooded with neighbors from an apartment building applauding our actions. I had a chance to watch one of the recordings and saw the drug dealer's three year old daughter standing in the corner of the kitchen watching Daddy pinch off the brick for our CI. Is this the kind of guy some here would support?

Before a SWAT team is activated, certain criteria must be met, such as past known violence or lengthy history of violent felony arrests, threats of murdering police that try to arrest, known to be heavily armed, etc. I'm not sure how some agencies get the wrong address as I have been fortunate enough to never experience this. We have a lot of intel with our own guys (not CI's) watching & tailing a subject prior to the raid.

Now about the SWAT teams.... they are here to stay fellas and are needed! Some situations call for a tactical response and regular patrol are not geared or trained to handle them. If your police department isn't prepared to handle serious situation.... what do you do... who do you call? I do not know of a single SWAT team in operation that has been activated for ANY misdemeanor warrants or arrests.

I know all of our guys are top notch, very professional & most of us are prior military. We have received some of the best training throughout the country and are required to attend FBI SWAT school for certification. Even then your put in the rear with the gear until you've proven yourself. We just don't throw on our gear and go out to play army.

I've read some disturbing articles on INGO about how law enforcement should or shouldn't enforce the laws. Don't hate the Police for enforcing the laws your fellow Americans have voted for. If you don't like the laws that are currently on the books, vote for someone who shares your same opinions & objectives to get the laws changed.

Most of the time I see posts on INGO about how the police are the bad guys. Ive been in LE fifteen (15) years and can only recall two bad apples that were hired on my department and they have been investigated and fired for their actions. No cover ups, no thin blue line BS! They tarnish the shield for the rest of us. We will always see stories about bad police work as none of us are perfect. We are still & will remain the Good Guys! I believe our community strongly supports us through both the good and bad. As long as we have that support... we are good to go

Thanks for the above. I waded through I-don't-remember-how-many-pages of this thread hoping someone would bring this up. Folks, our governments at all levels are out of control. Personally, I think empirical evidence shows that Prohibition doesn't work, but I'm not convinced that, at this point, certain aspects of "the War on Drugs" are a failure or need to be ended. On the other hand, government at all levels has become far too intrusive and IT IS OUR COLLECTIVE FAULT!!! If we want change; if we want to get back to the principles upon which our nation was founded, we can either do it the way the Founding Fathers ended up doing it, or we can get out and convince the rest of the voters of this country to change the laws back to conformance with those principles. To do that, we have to make cogent arguments that resonate with our fellow citizens, and we will have to commit to the long haul because we didn't get this way overnight and we won't fix the current culture which condones government interference overnight absent a bloody conflict most, if not all of us, don't want. We can rail against the cops all we want, but they are just doing a job every day, like you folks are. If they have a hammer and start seeing every problem as a nail, well some of you folks apparently have a different hammer that you like to use.

I won't speak for anyone else, but calling me names for expressing my ideas - however poorly spoken at times - (and no one has called me any names as yet) won't change my mind or make me more inclined to respect your ideas. If you folks just enjoy name-calling and ragging on each other over issues, then have at it. If you want to convince others that your ideas are sound, then make your points with as little animus as possible.

 

[jbombelli]

Oh great now we have a bunch of pro druggies on a gun site. Ain't that just lovely?

Try pro-freedom. Something you apparently wouldn't understand.

You were whining about INGO members in another thread as well. Feel free to leave anytime. GTFO. Bye.



YOU are a perfect example of why The United States of America is NO LONGER THE LAND OF THE FREE. We're the land of Whatever The Government Decides To Let Us Do This Week.