Straw Purchse Questions/Discussion

[Timjoebillybob]

Officer Abramski v. United States: Abramski v. United States : SCOTUSblog

It's not illegal to buy someone else a gun with your own money. If they give you the money and you buy the gun for them, that could be illegal. If it's your wife, people probably won't care (other than asking, "How'd you get that deal going?") but if it's your brother-in-law you may face a bit more scrutiny, especially if he's a gangbanger and you know about it. Same BIL (provided he's not a gangbanger) says, "Hey man, I see Gander near you has an 870 I want. Care to pick it up for me and I'll pay you back later?" you're not really doing a straw purchase because he hasn't given you the money yet and you are the actual purchaser. Who knows, you may want to keep it after all. But if you walk in the store and tell the clerk, "I'm picking this up for my brother who's going to pay me back later." you may run into some issues. If you keep your trap shut and buy the gun for yourself and then decide to sell it to your brother later you will have no issues. (Again, provided he's not a gangbanger and you're not buying it for him to commit crimes with and you're the actually purchaser for an amount of time.)

Please for the love of all that is holy read the above linked case. He would be the actual purchaser because you had a prior agreement to pick it up for him, no matter if you used your money for a period of time. The wife one is a bit stickier imo, do they generally consider their funds co-mingled, or do they have strict individual accounts? Did the money she give her husband come from a joint account, or her personal one?

What if I decide to keep the gun?

What was your original intent? Was it to for you to exchange the gun with him for money or other valuable goods or services? Then he is the purchaser and you committed a straw purchase as soon as you answered on the 4473 that you are the purchaser and paid/received it.

But you are selling a gun to someone that you know can not buy one from a licensed dealer.

Does the fact that he does not happen, at that moment, to have picture ID make him "ineligible" to do so, or does it simply mean that while eligible under the substantive law, he does not have a way to complete the procedure of buying from a licensed dealer?

That's what I was thinking. For instance let's say my wife gives me a ride to make a private purchase but I left my DL at home? Would it be illegal for the seller to sell it to me? I'm ineligible at that time. But not ineligible under substantive law.

 

[IndyGunSafety]

It's all where the MONEY comes from. If you are not PAYING for it, you are not the actual buyer. So if Billy-Bob gives you the money and you buy a gun for him, THAT is a straw purchase. Yes you can go buy a gun with your own money and gift it to anyone who is of legal age and whom you have no reason to believe is a felon or otherwise a prohibited person. The case Kirk cites above sets the standard. It is perfectly legal to purchase a gun for someone else if YOU pay for it. You are the actual buyer. Again, it's where the money comes from.

The question I have is what happens if the funds are co-joined? Husband and wife have ONE bank account and husband buys gun for wife. I have yet to see a clear answer for this.

I've had many cases where the husband and wife come in, he picks out his birthday gun and she tries to pay for it. SHE would have to do the 4473, not him. She paid for it, so she is the actual buyer. But again, what if the funds for both of them are in the same account? I always err'd on the side of caution.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

It's all where the MONEY comes from.

Maybe sometimes it is.

It's all about specific intent.

If you are not PAYING for it, you are not the actual buyer.

Maybe sometimes.

Kirk and rhino are handing out Ron Paul flyers at the gun shop. rhino, in a moment of clarity, says "Kirk, I owe you so much, let me give you the money to purchase a Korth pistol."

I take the money from rhino, as I should. I buy the Korth pistol. I take the Korth pistol home and then text rhino photos of me shooting the Korth pistol at the range. rhino is sad and cuts himself.

The question I have is what happens if the funds are co-joined? Husband and wife have ONE bank account and husband buys gun for wife. I have yet to see a clear answer for this.

Don't focus on the money (do you know how much that hurts me to type?). Focus on the intent of the donor as in gift law.

 

[KJQ6945]

Can we just go back to Rhino cutting himself? Was it deep, or was it just a little scratch for attention? Did he text you pics?

 

[Thor]

Nothing like getting a chuckle out of a legal discussion!

 

[nakinate]

Can we just go back to Rhino cutting himself? Was it deep, or was it just a little scratch for attention? Did he text you pics?

Also, what knife was he using? His Junglas neck-knife?

 

[MohawkSlim]

The answers here are wonderful because nobody really knows. There's a reason the laws are somewhat loosely written... and that works both ways!

The one I'm really waiting for is when someone's going to finally challenge the case to a high enough court on why we're all required to pay a poll tax when buying a firearm. We really need to convince the lefties that it's racist, sexist, extremist, whatever, to require a poor person to present a government-issued photo ID to buy a firearm. They won't stand for it when voting, how on earth can they support it when old Mr. _____ wants to buy a gun? That's racist! When Mrs. ____ wants to buy a gun, why is she required to submit to the male dominated societal requirement of a photo ID? Didn't her sisters "suffrage" enough for her to exercise ALL her rights in a fair manner?

How they can argue one side of an issue in relation to one right and then toss out that very same value when it comes to another right has always left me amazed. But, then again, they amaze me daily.

 

[HoughMade]

The answers here are wonderful because nobody really knows. There's a reason the laws are somewhat loosely written... and that works both ways!

The one I'm really waiting for is when someone's going to finally challenge the case to a high enough court on why we're all required to pay a poll tax when buying a firearm. We really need to convince the lefties that it's racist, sexist, extremist, whatever, to require a poor person to present a government-issued photo ID to buy a firearm. They won't stand for it when voting, how on earth can they support it when old Mr. _____ wants to buy a gun? That's racist! When Mrs. ____ wants to buy a gun, why is she required to submit to the male dominated societal requirement of a photo ID? Didn't her sisters "suffrage" enough for her to exercise ALL her rights in a fair manner?

How they can argue one side of an issue in relation to one right and then toss out that very same value when it comes to another right has always left me amazed. But, then again, they amaze me daily.

While I understand the sentiment, the Supreme Court has upheld photo I.D.s for voting, so I don't think this argument has anywhere to go.

 

[Cameramonkey]

LOL, yes councillor.
I made a call to one of you guys yesterday. We chatted for quite awhile about odds and ends and actual business only a few minutes. I have the feeling the whole thing was billed to one of my files.

No, the wife and I were talking about this after the Nappanee Show. The Amish are openly buying and selling firearms. The local PoPo are there checking guns. After reading the suit that I mentioned earlier about the PA Amishman suing. Are the rules/laws the same for private transfers vs. dealer purchases? It sounds like it to me. Do I care, not really. It was just a curiosity thing.

Different. For me to sell to you, I dont have to fill out a 4473 and do a background check to prove you are OK. I dont even have to do any research. At least in IN, I just have to not believe you are an improper person. So even if you are improper and dont tell me, I can still sell to you legally as long as I dont know about it. So if I remember seeing your mugshot on the news two years ago for something that makes you prohibited, or I am friends with your cousin who told me you are prohibited, its a bad deal and I'd be violating the law. (or you blabbed to me about why you are buying mine and not the one in the store) For individuals doing a private sale, the burden of proof is on the buyer, not the seller. And it defaults to innocent until proven guilty. If the bad guy doesnt tell the seller (and the seller has no reason to believe he's prohibited), the seller is still in the clear legally.

 

[injb]

Different. For me to sell to you, I dont have to fill out a 4473 and do a background check to prove you are OK. I dont even have to do any research. At least in IN, I just have to not believe you are an improper person. So even if you are improper and dont tell me, I can still sell to you legally as long as I dont know about it. So if I remember seeing your mugshot on the news two years ago for something that makes you prohibited, or I am friends with your cousin who told me you are prohibited, its a bad deal and I'd be violating the law. (or you blabbed to me about why you are buying mine and not the one in the store) For individuals doing a private sale, the burden of proof is on the buyer, not the seller. And it defaults to innocent until proven guilty. If the bad guy doesnt tell the seller (and the seller has no reason to believe he's prohibited), the seller is still in the clear legally.

I read about a case a few years back where a guy at a gun show sold a gun to an immigrant (private sale) who showed him a driver's license. The immigrant had a friend with him (who didn't show id) who handed over the cash to the guy with the DL. Was that a good sale or not? The guy who did the transaction had proof of residency in the seller's state. But it turns out they were illegal immigrants. The whole thing was observed by agents, and the seller was ultimately convicted (with the help of the buyers iirc).

 

[Cameramonkey]

I read about a case a few years back where a guy at a gun show sold a gun to an immigrant (private sale) who showed him a driver's license. The immigrant had a friend with him (who didn't show id) who handed over the cash to the guy with the DL. Was that a good sale or not? The guy who did the transaction had proof of residency in the seller's state. But it turns out they were illegal immigrants. The whole thing was observed by agents, and the seller was ultimately convicted (with the help of the buyers iirc).

Depends on state laws. I dont think all laws are written like Indiana's and could be more restrictive. (IANAL) But it doesnt sound like the seller made appropriate guarantees that the actual buyer was a resident of the same state, not that he was/wasnt a prohibited person.

 

[injb]

Depends on state laws. I dont think all laws are written like Indiana's and could be more restrictive. (IANAL) But it doesnt sound like the seller made appropriate guarantees that the actual buyer was a resident of the same state, not that he was/wasnt a prohibited person.

It was a federal case, and he did see a DL from the buyer. I may have "misremembered" some details, but I managed to dig up the info I read on it before:

Gun Dealer Gets Prison for Selling to Illegal Immigrant; Illegal 'Middle Man' Not Charged

I found this too - looks like his appeal was unsuccessful. Most people would probably say he deserved it - he knew the gun was for the other guy. There was outrage at the time mainly because the illegal alien who acted as the middle man got away scott free.

TLDR version is, he was convicted under 922 (d) (5) (A), i.e. transferring a gun to someone you know or have reasonable cause to believe is an illegal alien. He did not actually give the gun to that person, or receive the money directly from them, but that doesn't seem to matter.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

The answers here are wonderful because nobody really knows.

Not tracking. We have told you what a straw purchase is. What do you still have questions about?

 

[coban]

My question is how does a young man 18-20 years old legally obtain a handgun other than it being a gift?

 

[Mr. Habib]

He would purchase it from an individual.

 

[MohawkSlim]

My question is how does a young man 18-20 years old legally obtain a handgun other than it being a gift?

There is no other way.

 

[Bill of Rights]

There is no other way.

An 18 yr old could not purchase a handgun private party? Say, for example, he got on Gunbroker or wherever and lo and behold, his next door neighbor is selling that 1911 he's always admired. "Hey Steve, I saw you were selling your gun. Gimme a couple of days till I get paid and I'll buy it!"

 

[Expat]

Different. For me to sell to you, I dont have to fill out a 4473 and do a background check to prove you are OK. I dont even have to do any research. At least in IN, I just have to not believe you are an improper person. So even if you are improper and dont tell me, I can still sell to you legally as long as I dont know about it. So if I remember seeing your mugshot on the news two years ago for something that makes you prohibited, or I am friends with your cousin who told me you are prohibited, its a bad deal and I'd be violating the law. (or you blabbed to me about why you are buying mine and not the one in the store) For individuals doing a private sale, the burden of proof is on the buyer, not the seller. And it defaults to innocent until proven guilty. If the bad guy doesnt tell the seller (and the seller has no reason to believe he's prohibited), the seller is still in the clear legally.

None of which was in question and misses the point of my question. An Amishman can not buy from a FFL. Every knows an Amishman can not buy from a FFL. The section of the law I quoted above states that it is illegal to transfer a gun to an individual that you know can not buy a gun from a FFL. It does not say it is okay if you disagree with the reasons he can not buy from a FFL.

 

[JettaKnight]

None of which was in question and misses the point of my question. An Amishman can not buy from a FFL. Every knows an Amishman can not buy from a FFL. The section of the law I quoted above states that it is illegal to transfer a gun to an individual that you know can not buy a gun from a FFL. It does not say it is okay if you disagree with the reasons he can not buy from a FFL.

An Amish man can't buy from an FFL because an FFL is not an entity (e.g. a person or store).

Sorry, OCD attack.


I hold an FFL03, and I don't know of regulation preventing a sale* if I record the required information and verify the buy is who they claim to be.


* I'll claim ignorance here if there is one.

 

[SteveM4A1]

An 18 yr old could not purchase a handgun private party? Say, for example, he got on Gunbroker or wherever and lo and behold, his next door neighbor is selling that 1911 he's always admired. "Hey Steve, I saw you were selling your gun. Gimme a couple of days till I get paid and I'll buy it!"

No I am not selling my gun!!! IMPOSTERS!

But yes, BoR and Habib are on the money. Private sale or gift.