Straw Purchse Questions/Discussion

[aclark]

Stemming from THIS thread I was doing some research and digging in the IC and I had a few questions/comments that seem to go against the common thought of a straw purchase. I just wanted to put them out there for discussion.

Per IC code a straw purchase is defined below

IC 35-47-2-7
Prohibited sales or transfers of ownership
Sec. 7. (a) Except an individual acting within a parent-minor child
or guardian-minor protected person relationship or any other
individual who is also acting in compliance with IC 35-47-10
(governing children and firearms), a person may not sell, give, or in
any other manner transfer the ownership or possession of a handgun
or assault weapon to any person under eighteen (18) years of age.
(b) A person who knowingly or intentionally sells, gives, or in any
other manner transfers the ownership or possession of a handgun to
another person who the person knows:
(1) is ineligible for any reason other than the person's age to
purchase or otherwise receive from a dealer a handgun; or
(2) intends to use the handgun to commit a crime;
commits criminal transfer of a handgun, a Level 5 felony. However,
the offense is a Level 3 felony if the other person uses the handgun
to commit murder (IC 35-42-1-1).
(c) A person who purchases a handgun with the intent to:
(1) resell or otherwise provide the handgun to another person
who the person knows is ineligible for any reason to purchase
or otherwise receive from a dealer a handgun;
(2) resell or otherwise provide the handgun to another person
who the person knows intends to use the handgun to commit a
crime; or
(3) transport the handgun outside Indiana to be resold or
otherwise provided to another person who the transferor knows:
(A) is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive a handgun;
or
Indiana Code 2015
(B) intends to use the handgun to commit a crime;
commits the straw purchase of a handgun, a Level 5 felony.
However, the offense is a Level 3 felony if the other person uses the
handgun to commit murder (IC 35-42-1-1).
(d) As used in this subsection, "NICS" has the meaning set forth
in IC 35-47-2.5-2.5. It is a defense to a prosecution under subsection
(b)(1) that:
(1) the accused person contacted NICS (or had a dealer contact
NICS on the person's behalf) to request a background check on
the other person before the accused person sold, gave, or in any
other manner transferred the ownership or possession of the
handgun to the other person; and
(2) the accused person (or dealer acting on the person's behalf)
received authorization from NICS to sell, give, or in any other
manner transfer ownership or possession of the handgun to the
other person.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.33-1989,
SEC.126; P.L.140-1994, SEC.8; P.L.269-1995, SEC.7;
P.L.158-2013, SEC.577; P.L.152-2014, SEC.2.

Now you can see I've bolded and highlighted a few things here.
1. The bolded part only refers to INELIGIBLE PERSONS or someone that you know will use the gun to COMMIT A CRIME. It doesn't state ANY PERSON, nor does it ever mention a PROPER PERSON.
2. Highlighted parts refer to a HANDGUN which is defined below. I never mentions SHOTGUN or LONG GUN/RIFLE. Now if these are stated in another section of the IC please forgive me, as only section 35-47 came up in my search for IC relating to straw purchases.

IC 35-47
-1-6
"Handgun"
Sec. 6. "Handgun" means any firearm:
(1) designed or adapted so as to be aimed and fired from one (1)
hand, regardless of barrel length; or
(2) any firearm with:
(A) a barrel less than sixteen (16) inches in length; or
(B) an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32

So if we take the IC literally then a straw purchase only applies to handguns bought for improper persons.

Now what about lying on the 4473? Well that would be answering question 11a. Quoted below

Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are
acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you.
(See Instructions for Question 11.a.) ...

Now we don't have a definition of transferee/buyer here. Is the buyer the one filling out the paperwork and taking custody of the firearm? Is it the person that has the money on their persons? Is it the person that earned the money? I would argue if I am filling out the paperwork, handing over the money, and taking custody of the firearm, then YES I AM the transferee/buyer. It doesn't ask "Are you going to keep this gun forever" or "Are you planning on selling this gun". Again, if there is a definition of the transferee/buyer somewhere then please let me know, and I'll admit defeat on this one.

 

[HoughMade]

The 4473 doesn't care about state law.

the "buyer/transferree", under federal law, is the person who claims to be buying the gun, and therefore, the person in whose name the 4473 is filled out and the NICS check is done.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I would argue if I am filling out the paperwork, handing over the money, and taking custody of the firearm, then YES I AM the transferee/buyer.

How did that work out for Officer Abramski?

The 4473 doesn't care about state law.

Honey badger . . . er, United States Attorney cares not one whit what I.C. 35-blah-blah-blah says.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Officer Abramski v. United States: Abramski v. United States : SCOTUSblog

 

[Kirk Freeman]

United States Attorney doesn't care.

 

[Dosproduction]

So is it illegal to buy a gun for a gift for your wife or brother in law or someone like that. Seems like it would be. Is there a amount of time you have to keep the item to not make it illegal to then give away.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

So is it illegal to buy a gun for a gift for your wife or brother in law or someone like that.

No, of course not. Well, maybe if your wife or brother in law is a prohibited person, but no gifts are perfectly fine, but being a straw purchaser is not.

Legal: you buy shotgun for Bubba to celebrate the birth of Baby General Bobby Lee.

Illegal under 922a6: Bubba gives you money to buy shotgun for him.

 

[MohawkSlim]

So is it illegal to buy a gun for a gift for your wife or brother in law or someone like that. Seems like it would be. Is there a amount of time you have to keep the item to not make it illegal to then give away.

It's not illegal to buy someone else a gun with your own money. If they give you the money and you buy the gun for them, that could be illegal. If it's your wife, people probably won't care (other than asking, "How'd you get that deal going?") but if it's your brother-in-law you may face a bit more scrutiny, especially if he's a gangbanger and you know about it. Same BIL (provided he's not a gangbanger) says, "Hey man, I see Gander near you has an 870 I want. Care to pick it up for me and I'll pay you back later?" you're not really doing a straw purchase because he hasn't given you the money yet and you are the actual purchaser. Who knows, you may want to keep it after all. But if you walk in the store and tell the clerk, "I'm picking this up for my brother who's going to pay me back later." you may run into some issues. If you keep your trap shut and buy the gun for yourself and then decide to sell it to your brother later you will have no issues. (Again, provided he's not a gangbanger and you're not buying it for him to commit crimes with and you're the actually purchaser for an amount of time.)

The timeline of these transactions is even more gray than the wording of straw purchases. I've heard you have to keep the firearm for at least 24 hours or else you're "engaged in the business of transacting in firearms." If you do that, you need a license. If you're just some happy guy who got a good deal at the show and then someone offered a better deal before you got to the end of the aisle, you may be a felon.

All this stuff is hard to pin down because the King writes his laws to be loosely interpreted. Bottom line is agent so-and-so wants you to go to jail you're going to go to jail. Do your best to follow all the laws and you probably won't break more than a couple! The folks I've known on "that side" of the community tend to be pretty lax with the exactness. Be a good person and try to do good, they'll do their best to not hit you with every single possible violation. Be an idiot and do folks badly, you'll be facing as many charges as they can throw at you.

 

[level0]

Same BIL (provided he's not a gangbanger) says, "Hey man, I see Gander near you has an 870 I want. Care to pick it up for me and I'll pay you back later?" you're not really doing a straw purchase because he hasn't given you the money yet and you are the actual purchaser.

Um, I am pretty sure that's precisely a straw purchase. In your example, dude is buying this item for someone else who is unable or unwilling to buy it themselves. That's a straw purchase. The clear intent here is to purchase on behalf of the other guy.

 

[MohawkSlim]

Um, I am pretty sure that's precisely a straw purchase. In your example, dude is buying this item for someone else who is unable or unwilling to buy it themselves. That's a straw purchase. The clear intent here is to purchase on behalf of the other guy.

What if I decide to keep the gun?

 

[gglass]

What if I decide to keep the gun?

Well then you would eventually go to debtor's prison, since you are the kind of person who would waste money on things they never intended or purchase... Duh!

 

[Expat]

So this brings up something that I have been thinking about since I saw the article about the Amish guy in PA suing.

Wouldn't it be illegal for even a private seller, to sell a gun to an Amish then?

 

[JollyMon]

So this brings up something that I have been thinking about since I saw the article about the Amish guy in PA suing.

Wouldn't it be illegal for even a private seller, to sell a gun to an Amish then?

No.... You dont need to do a id check with a private sale....

 

[USMC-Johnson]

all about the sticky little thing of INTENT...

 

[HoughMade]

No, of course not. Well, maybe if your wife or brother in law is a prohibited person, but no gifts are perfectly fine, but being a straw purchaser is not.

Legal: you buy shotgun for Bubba to celebrate the birth of Baby General Bobby Lee.

Illegal under 922a6: Bubba gives you money to buy shotgun for him.

Notice how Mr. Freeman's explanation here raised an issue of "prohibited person" as to the gift, but as he implied, a "straw purchase" need not be for a prohibited person, just for another person.

 

[Expat]

No.... You dont need to do a id check with a private sale....

But you are selling a gun to someone that you know can not buy one from a licensed dealer.

(b) A person who knowingly or intentionally sells, gives, or in any
other manner transfers the ownership or possession of a handgun to
another person who the person knows:
(1) is ineligible for any reason other than the person's age to
purchase or otherwise receive from a dealer a handgun

 

[HoughMade]

Does the fact that he does not happen, at that moment, to have picture ID make him "ineligible" to do so, or does it simply mean that while eligible under the substantive law, he does not have a way to complete the procedure of buying from a licensed dealer?

 

[Expat]

Does the fact that he does not happen, at that moment, to have picture ID make him "ineligible" to do so, or does it simply mean that while eligible under the substantive law, he does not have a way to complete the procedure of buying from a licensed dealer?

Would there be a difference to the BATFE?

 

[HoughMade]

Would there be a difference to the BATFE?

That is the question. Get me a file number I can bill this to and I'll research it.

 

[Expat]

That is the question. Get me a file number I can bill this to and I'll research it.

LOL, yes councillor.
I made a call to one of you guys yesterday. We chatted for quite awhile about odds and ends and actual business only a few minutes. I have the feeling the whole thing was billed to one of my files.

No, the wife and I were talking about this after the Nappanee Show. The Amish are openly buying and selling firearms. The local PoPo are there checking guns. After reading the suit that I mentioned earlier about the PA Amishman suing. Are the rules/laws the same for private transfers vs. dealer purchases? It sounds like it to me. Do I care, not really. It was just a curiosity thing.