Straw purchase

[Suprtek]

Buy from someone who is not a FFL dealer, then no 4473, no crime. Are there collectors at the 1500, who buy and sell for personal use? I think if he were not legally able to purchase for himself, and you bought it for him, then that's a crime, JMHO

I might be wrong, but I didn't think you could sell from a table or booth at the 1500 unless you were an FFL. I know people are allowed to bring guns for private sales though.

 

[Dirtebiker]

Im saying if you are buying a gun with the intent of selling to a friend thats a straw purchase.

Question 11a. on the 4473 Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm listed on the form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm on the behalf of another person.

You are the actual buyer... You are buying it!!!
You decide to sell it to someone else, no problem!
Now if you know that your friend is not legally allowed to possess a gun and you sell it to him, then you are in the wrong!

 

[Rampdog]

It appears that ATF defines a "straw purchase" as

"Purchasing a gun for someone who is prohibited by law from possessing one, or for
someone who does not want his or her name associated with the transaction, is a
“straw purchase,” a Federal crime punishable by up to 10 years in prison and a fine of up to​

$250,000."

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/programs/dont-lie/documents/dontlie-postcard-en.pdf

 

[Hiram2005]

I might be wrong, but I didn't think you could sell from a table or booth at the 1500 unless you were an FFL. I know people are allowed to bring guns for private sales though.

There is no requirement to hold an FFL to have a table to sell personal firearms at the 1500 or any other show in Indiana.

 

[knobcreeknut]

I just had a sitdown with my ATF examiner today. He made very clear that the ATF position is that if you are buying a weapon with the intent to sell it, give it away, or even gift it away, it is a straw purchase. Not saying it's right or wrong, just that it is.

Wow, I have never had an examiner define true gifts as straw purchases. It is a sad situation that an individuals interpretation of the law can be so far off of the published interpretation, and you have to abide by it or risk your livelihood

 

[hooky]

I just had a sitdown with my ATF examiner today. He made very clear that the ATF position is that if you are buying a weapon with the intent to sell it, give it away, or even gift it away, it is a straw purchase. Not saying it's right or wrong, just that it is.

That seems over the top. They could pop me for buying my minor son or daughter a .22 for their birthday? The code cited above says differently. The examiner is clearly taking a position counter to the code.

 

[indykid]

So when I buy a firearm to give to my daughter as a birthday gift, I am making an illegal straw purchase? She is legally able to own a firearm per the new second amendment, so why can't I buy her one????

The operative thing that I was always told is that as long as the person you are buying it for can legally buy it themselves, it is not a straw purchase. My 2 cent, non attorney interpretation of ATF idea of straw purchases is that it is illegal if you are buying it for someone who legally could not buy it themself.

 

[DragonGunner]

It appears that ATF defines a "straw purchase" as

"Purchasing a gun for someone who is prohibited by law from possessing one, or for
someone who does not want his or her name associated with the transaction, is a
“straw purchase,” a Federal crime punishable by up to 10 years in prison and a fine of up to​

$250,000."

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/programs/dont-lie/documents/dontlie-postcard-en.pdf

This seems to spell it out for me....

Q. Did you buy that gun for someone else?
A. No, after I bought it I decided to sell it.

Q. Did you buy that gun as a birthday gift for your son?
A. No, after I bought it I decided that on his birthday I would give it to him.

Can "they" prove otherwise, are they going to waste their time trying to prove it....not likely.....

 

[kludge]

If you buy it with the intention of selling it that is the definition of a straw purchase.

 

[Bunnykid68]

I guess I may have committed a straw purchase years ago when I bought my dad a rifle

 

[kludge]

I just had a sitdown with my ATF examiner today. He made very clear that the ATF position is that if you are buying a weapon with the intent to sell it, give it away, or even gift it away, it is a straw purchase. Not saying it's right or wrong, just that it is.

The red part is not true.

"If, however, Bobby was with his father or other legal guardian, and his father was legally eligible to obtain the handgun as a gift for Bobby, his father would fill out Form 4473, undergo the NICS check, and assume legal responsibility for the transaction and the gun. Bobby’s father could truthfully complete the Form 4473 to indicate that he is the actual purchaser because he would take title to the weapon and then transfer the firearm to Bobby as a gift."
​

source=www.atf.gov

ATF Online - Training - Firearms - Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide Learning Theater - Straw Purchase Attempt Transcript

And to the OP's question:

"a straw purchase occurs even when the actual purchaser is not a prohibited person"
​

source=same link as above

 

[SideArmed]

So here is a another question about this.

Say my father and I are at a gun show/shop and I find a gun I want, am going to buy it, fill out all the paper work, but my dad says that he is going to pay for it. I am the purchaser, but my father is the one that is actually giving the money for it.

I see it no different then if he gave me the money and I purchased the gun for myself, but would the ATF see it differently?

 

[kludge]

I guess I may have committed a straw purchase years ago when I bought my dad a rifle

No, you didn't. Gifts are fine.

 

[kingnereli]

If you buy it with the intention of selling it that is the definition of a straw purchase.

Did you read the links to ATF firearms regulation guide and the ATF's Don't Lie For the Other Guy campaign? If the other guy is not in a prohibited category and you use your own money there is no straw purchase.

 

[kludge]

So here is a another question about this.

Say my father and I are at a gun show/shop and I find a gun I want, am going to buy it, fill out all the paper work, but my dad says that he is going to pay for it. I am the purchaser, but my father is the one that is actually giving the money for it.

I see it no different then if he gave me the money and I purchased the gun for myself, but would the ATF see it differently?

If your dad says, "It's on me son," and fills out the paperwork and pays for it and gives it to you as a gift, nothing illegal happened. It may raise the eyebrows of the dealer, ans some my refuse to make the sale, but it's 100% legal.

Many many years ago my brother, my mom, and myself went to a gun show. She bought three handguns, from Bob I believe, one was for me, one for my brother, and one for herself. All 3rd Gen S&W .40 cal. I was over 21 at the time, and I could have bought it myself, but it was her gift to us. I was standing right there when the transaction occured.

 

[kludge]

Did you read the links to ATF firearms regulation guide and the ATF's Don't Lie For the Other Guy campaign? If the other guy is not in a prohibited category and you use your own money there is no straw purchase.

If you intend to sell it to him the next day it is a straw purchase, or IOW, he if will "pay you back" it's a straw purchase. Read the quotes in post #31.

If you give it to your friend as a gift it is not a straw purchase.

 

[SideArmed]

If your dad says, "It's on me son," and fills out the paperwork and pays for it and gives it to you as a gift, nothing illegal happened. It may raise the eyebrows of the dealer, ans some my refuse to make the sale, but it's 100% legal.

Many many years ago my brother, my mom, and myself went to a gun show. She bought three handguns, from Bob I believe, one was for me, one for my brother, and one for herself. All 3rd Gen S&W .40 cal. I was over 21 at the time, and I could have bought it myself, but it was her gift to us. I was standing right there when the transaction occured.

If that were the case, Like I was going to buy a gift for someone, I would wait till I am at least out of the gun show to give it to them. Just seems like the route with the least hassles.

But I am talking just about the physical exchange of money. I am the purchaser, but my dad hands the cash/card to the dealer. I filled out the paper work, the gun will be mine, but physically my father hands the cash over.

This is all hypothetical, but it is an instance I could see happening and just wondering how it would be looked upon.

 

[CarmelHP]

Wow, I have never had an examiner define true gifts as straw purchases. It is a sad situation that an individuals interpretation of the law can be so far off of the published interpretation, and you have to abide by it or risk your livelihood

ATF compliance agents are as bad as cops in making accurate legal interpretations.

The last time this emerged (I wish INGO had a FAQ) I made the following comment:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo.../143019-whats_a_straw_sale-2.html#post1790003

Straw sale- standing in for the actual purchaser. "A" is the actual purchaser, but, for whatever reason, cannot make the purchase, so he has "B" stand in for him with the intent that "A" is the actual recipient.

Unlicensed dealing- purchasing with the intent to resell.

Gift- Purchase with the intent to make a bona fide gift of a firearm to a qualified recipient- perfectly legal.

FTF sale to under 21- Perfectly legal to sell your own handgun to a person 18 to 21 who is otherwise eligible to receive it under state law. What is not legal is straw sale (above) by standing in for that person in a FFL purchase transaction.

 

[DownByTheTracks]

I ask because a friend of mine is interested in getting a handgun and won't be able to attend the 1500. If I find something that would work for him and buy it, then sell it to him the next day for the same price, am I breaking the law?

Having published this statement on the interwebs, I would suggest that you don't purchase a gun for your friend. Let him do it himself. Many of the opinions here border on a very wobbly fence, and what is "legal or not legal" is often times up to the attitude of the Agent.

Play stupid games...win stupid prizes.

 

[snowman46919]

the only thing I really see that the 4473 that state are illegal is 1. Purchasing for someone who is an improper person and 2. Purchasing multiple firearms in the intent to sell them for a profit. Since neither of these statements apply I do not believe there is anything wrong with what is going on.