Stopped by Terre Haute PD for OC'ing -- On a Date!

[Expat]

Never fails. Expat is here with some serious word twisting. Who said anything about shooting 3 year olds? Do they let 3 year olds become cops? I know some act like it, but I don't think that's legal.

What do you do, let a 3 year old kid play with your firearm? Do you let them stick knives into electrical outlets? See, this is the difference with the open carriers. They are responsible, and it isn't responsible to let a 3 year old touch your holster or play with your firearm, even if you are OK with that. Kids should be taught that it isn't OK to touch a stranger's gun. Perhaps the kids that do that, and are never taught otherwise, are the ones who grow up to become cops who think it is OK to touch a stranger's firearm without their consent. It all makes sense now.

Word twisting revenge complete.

Not really any word twisting as opposed to a bit of hyperbole to illustrate a point. Not surprised you failed to get it. I know most of you are young fellas and tend to be more ... excitable than I am. But when you say you are in a crowd in a city park and if you feel something tap your holster you are either going to lay someone out with an elbow or whip that hog leg out, ready to spray lead, do you have any idea how that sounds? And yes it could be a kid, it could be some old lady's hand bag that gets caught on your holster. You just don't know. How do you think those same cops would react to you now, when not only are you illegally carrying in the park, but now you have busted some citizen in the head with an elbow or drawn on one? I will bet you if they can, they will be hauling you in.

 

[Expat]

Yes. I have drawn a weapon on children before.
Only a fool thinks only an Adult can kill someone...

and you aren't illegally carrying in a city park.

 

[lashicoN]

Not really any word twisting as opposed to a bit of hyperbole to illustrate a point. Not surprised you failed to get it. I know most of you are young fellas and tend to be more ... excitable than I am. But when you say you are in a crowd in a city park and if you feel something tap your holster you are either going to lay someone out with an elbow or whip that hog leg out, ready to spray lead, do you have any idea how that sounds? And yes it could be a kid, it could be some old lady's hand bag that gets caught on your holster. You just don't know. How do you think those same cops would react to you now, when not only are you illegally carrying in the park, but now you have busted some citizen in the head with an elbow or drawn on one? I will bet you if they can, they will be hauling you in.

I didn't take it from the OP's story that there were mobs of people at the park. Could have been my own fault, but I imagined a grassy area with people spread sparsely out. I don't OC at places with large groups of people for that exact reason. A kid or someone is bound to bump into it. Other people who choose to OC, I don't care. If you can stay that alert and that comfortable, good for you, I wish I could. If I'm going to a semi-crowded place (movie theater, restaurant), I usually conceal. If I'm going to a very crowded place, which I won't, I'd just take a knife, for fear that if I had to draw out my firearm, I'd hit some innocent people on accident if there were THAT many people around.

So out of all this back and forth, can any of you tell me why the police officers didn't approach him head-on, instead of sneaking up like a coward? Why do they always do that? Are they fishing for a confrontation? Are they as itchy for some action as I am? That is a very dangerous mixture.

 

[Pilot]

I think this is one of these situations where remaining courteous and cordial is the best plan. Turns out you were carrying illegally. If you had made it adversarial the odds of getting arrested or ticketed would have gone up. That is just human nature.

I agree.

You made the right choice to be polite and cooperate. Had you asked some wise question they could have decided to arrest you for carrying illegally.

Good choice on your demeanor and attitude with the officers.

 

[jeremy]

and you aren't illegally carrying in a city park.

You are right, I am not.

However, that being said. Tapping my holstered pistol as was described as in this event would possibly at best get the individual smacked, cut/stabbed at worst at least one of us would be shot...

That was EXTREMELY irresponsible and immature of that person. No one knows what someones training and life experiences have taught them to do in that situation...

 

[downzero]

No one knows what someones training and life experiences have taught them to do in that situation...

Doesn't really matter, either. The legal standard for whether whatever conduct happens after that (in tort and criminal both) is an objective test. It doesn't depend on your training.

In other words, you could still be liable, or in the pokey, even if you acted exactly as you were "trained," if a jury concludes your conduct was unreasonable.

 

[jeremy]

Doesn't really matter, either. The legal standard for whether whatever conduct happens after that (in tort and criminal both) is an objective test. It doesn't depend on your training.

In other words, you could still be liable, or in the pokey, even if you acted exactly as you were "trained," if a jury concludes your conduct was unreasonable.

Yup, you're right.

And it could just as easily go the other way and let me walk too. I am good with that risk, else I would not carry at all.

 

[downzero]

Yup, you're right.

And it could just as easily go the other way and let me walk too. I am good with that risk, else I would not carry at all.

You say that now, but I'm not sure you'd say it if you were in jail. That said, I agree with you as a general principle.

 

[mk2ja]

I didn't take it from the OP's story that there were mobs of people at the park. Could have been my own fault, but I imagined a grassy area with people spread sparsely out.

For the record, the place was very, very sparsely populated. There were no crowds of people at all.

 

[jeremy]

You say that now, but I'm not sure you'd say it if you were in jail. That said, I agree with you as a general principle.

I would say it then also...
I have been in far worse places than a cell inside the US...

That is the nice thing about the Legal System we have a decent Attorney and a Jury you never know which way it might swing. Justice can be a fickle lady...

Plus there is already some case law on this very subject...

 

[E5RANGER375]

You are right, I am not.

However, that being said. Tapping my holstered pistol as was described as in this event would possibly at best get the individual smacked, cut/stabbed at worst at least one of us would be shot...

That was EXTREMELY irresponsible and immature of that person. No one knows what someones training and life experiences have taught them to do in that situation...

agreed. the cop was an IDIOT to tap on his weapon. if he would have hit the cop (even though I believe he was justified to do so) then he would just be the one paying for it. we only have the rights the kings men give us for now until we get them back.

 

[SavageEagle]

Yea, I had an incident where a gas station attendant I'm friends with thought it would be funny to tap on the butt of my pistol in the store one day. My first reaction was to grab the pistol, turn, and start to draw. If someone's touching my firearm, they already have the upper hand and by giving them a hard elbow, you're only going to help them gain control of the firearm. Best thing to do is if they're grabbing the gun, grab their hand or the gun, turn the opposite way, and come around with your opposite elbow as you will more than likely be pulling them toward you. Chances are you'll hit them with your elbow or at the very least throw them down or into something.

After this incident I had, I learned to rest my right elbow on my pistol while OCing in a line or semi-crowded space. Luckily all she did was tap on the gun and quickly walk around me, but I freaked. Told her to NEVER do that again cause she almost got shot or hit.

I agree, what that cop did was VERY stupid, and possibly deadly had he done it to the wrong person. It really makes me wonder what kind of training some of these officers are receiving anymore? If they're getting good training, I think they need to take some yearly tests or something.

 

[Expat]

I would say it then also...
I have been in far worse places than a cell inside the US...

That is the nice thing about the Legal System we have a decent Attorney and a Jury you never know which way it might swing. Justice can be a fickle lady...

Plus there is already some case law on this very subject...

I would add that I think I know you well enough to say that I would doubt that you would not know who was next to you when you felt the tug or tap.

 

[mk2ja]

After this incident I had, I learned to rest my right elbow on my pistol while OCing in a line or semi-crowded space.

That's what I do, too, if there are more people around than I can keep my eye on. (Poor grammar, I know, but I didn't feel like fixing it )

 

[jeremy]

I would add that I think I know you well enough to say that I would doubt that you would not know who was next to you when you felt the tug or tap.

Stuff happens...

It is entirely to easy to become distracted and miss something or someone. I have had people walk up on me and not notice them until they started talking with me. It is impossible to be situational aware at all times. It is just not going to happen. If it was possible we would not have a need for weapons retention training would we?!

 

[SavageEagle]

That's what I do, too, if there are more people around than I can keep my eye on. (Poor grammar, I know, but I didn't feel like fixing it )

Unfortunately, Blackhawk doesn't make a holster for the Baby Eagle. Matter of fact, I haven't found a good retention holster for it at all. I had to have SharkTac make me a Kydex holster. While it holds the pistol in nice and tight, it doesn't do anything to stop someone from taking it and running.

 

[Clay]

Ah, and so it comes down to the fact if they don't know you have a weapon, how can they tap on it.

My work here is done

 

[mk2ja]

Ah, and so it comes down to the fact if they don't know you have a weapon, how can they tap on it.

My work here is done

Moreover, it comes down further to the fact that if they don't see you carrying it in a place you're not allowed to carry it... ;-)

 

[rmabrey]

How about we all stop carrying guns, then we wont have to argue about OC and CC anymore.

 

[SavageEagle]

How about we all stop carrying guns, then we wont have to argue about OC and CC anymore.

Ok, but I'm pretty sure LEO's would be upset if I tried carrying them around with me all the time.