Still not sold on pistol caliber carbine

[KJQ6945]

For LEO, pcc/sub guns have largely been replaced by carbines except where PC concerns of evil black rifles prevail. The reason is simple. A carbine can do anything a PCC can, but the opposite is not true.

That's not 100% true. A rifle can't be suppressed to the same noise level as a pistol caliber. .300 black, maybe. But only by changing ammo.

Law enforcement made the change for money. The Feds started giving away M4 carbines, and a free M4 will beat a $1500 dollar HK MP5 every time.

 

[KJQ6945]

We need to do an ingo PCC shoot. Seems to be a hot enough topic over the last year or so. I may have a suitable range to host a decent sized group. It would be nice to put some side by side and compare. And I really want to shoot your MPX. I ended up building an ar9 to test over the winter for competition suitability, but I think I'll end up buying something purpose built and engineered for 9mm when bonuses come up...

I'm game for it, and I've got a few. I started a thread a couple years back with this in mind, and we had a lot of people interested. I failed to put it together though, life gets in the way some times.

Build it, and they will come!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

That's not 100% true. A rifle can't be suppressed to the same noise level as a pistol caliber. .300 black, maybe. But only by changing ammo.

Law enforcement made the change for money. The Feds started giving away M4 carbines, and a free M4 will beat a $1500 dollar HK MP5 every time.

Yes, and a PCC will fit in places an M4 can't for storage. I can clarify that a carbine does everything LE cares about that a PCC can do, but the opposite isn't true if you like.

Carbines are cheaper to purchase, no doubt. I don't know that DRMO is giving out M4 carbines, and am pretty sure they weren't when the migration started. M16s yes. M14s, yes. M4s...maybe, but we sure didn't.

Terminal ballistics and the ability to mitigate misses/over penetration with a bullet that begins to upset and fragment is a biggest advantage.

Add in a non insignificant amount of recruits already familiar with the weapon due to GWOT, potentially lower cost, logistics, etc. are all in the carbine's favor. It becomes a pretty easy decision to make.

 

[Trigger Time]

I got to work on a central Indiana police officers department issued (drmo) DD railed MK18 once (colt FA lower). It was pretty sweet knowing it probably had some terrorist bodies on it. Or that's what I liked telling myself so that it made it cooler to work on
plus I took pride in knowing that this LEO was trusting my work with his life. It was an honor

*this was all done legally and through a shop with the proper set whatever number that is

 

[Ggreen]

That's not 100% true. A rifle can't be suppressed to the same noise level as a pistol caliber. .300 black, maybe. But only by changing ammo.

Law enforcement made the change for money. The Feds started giving away M4 carbines, and a free M4 will beat a $1500 dollar HK MP5 every time.

I'm honestly surprised that 300blk isn't a more popular round for le use. Cost must be prohibitive?? It's an exceptional round from 10feet to 200yards and to my ignorant self that is probably the range most officers would be working in. It has laid out both deer that I've hit with it, and as someone who came from slug guns and 50 cal muzzleloaders it impressed me to death. Add in its ability to be silenced and you have a real winner imo. I don't have anything against them rocking 223/5.56s though.

I'll work with the club to see what it takes to reserve a Saturday or sunday at the outdoor range. If it is doable then I'll get it set up. If it is easily doable it would be fun to do an NFA weekend too.

 

[Cameramonkey]

We need to do an ingo PCC shoot. Seems to be a hot enough topic over the last year or so. I may have a suitable range to host a decent sized group. It would be nice to put some side by side and compare. And I really want to shoot your MPX. I ended up building an ar9 to test over the winter for competition suitability, but I think I'll end up buying something purpose built and engineered for 9mm when bonuses come up...

Not too soon. My PCC is sitting at the shop waiting to be repaired. I dont think they will be getting any work done on it (or any other business this week, maybe next depending on whether they sustain storm damage from Florence. )

 

[daddyusmaximus]

I'm honestly surprised that 300blk isn't a more popular round for le use. Cost must be prohibitive?? It's an exceptional round from 10feet to 200yards and to my ignorant self that is probably the range most officers would be working in. It has laid out both deer that I've hit with it, and as someone who came from slug guns and 50 cal muzzleloaders it impressed me to death. Add in its ability to be silenced and you have a real winner imo. I don't have anything against them rocking 223/5.56s though.

I'll work with the club to see what it takes to reserve a Saturday or sunday at the outdoor range. If it is doable then I'll get it set up. If it is easily doable it would be fun to do an NFA weekend too.

I've often wondered that myself, but like you guessed, the bean counters probably win out much of the time. I rely on one for my home defense. I only answer to the wife, and I don't mind if she gets upset at me spending money on ammo. Besides, it's for her safety.

 

[KJQ6945]

Yes, and a PCC will fit in places an M4 can't for storage. I can clarify that a carbine does everything LE cares about that a PCC can do, but the opposite isn't true if you like.

Carbines are cheaper to purchase, no doubt. I don't know that DRMO is giving out M4 carbines, and am pretty sure they weren't when the migration started. M16s yes. M14s, yes. M4s...maybe, but we sure didn't.

Terminal ballistics and the ability to mitigate misses/over penetration with a bullet that begins to upset and fragment is a biggest advantage.

Add in a non insignificant amount of recruits already familiar with the weapon due to GWOT, potentially lower cost, logistics, etc. are all in the carbine's favor. It becomes a pretty easy decision to make.

No arguments. If I only had one rifle, like a police dept typically issues, it would be a rifle caliber. But, Having a bigger budget to outfit myself, versus what the PD can justify on a single officer, I get more choices. Freedom!

PDs are looking for a jack of all trades. The M4 carbine fills that role. It was designed for that role. Throw a red dot on it, it's a CQB gun, ACOG, now the same gun is set up for some medium range, somewhat precision work.

Subguns are specialty weapons. They aren't the do it all weapon that the M4 is. They were made for close quarters, and they are awesome at it. The M4 was a modification to the M16 to adapt to close quarters. It works, but it's not the end all, be all. It's just adequate for numerous things.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm honestly surprised that 300blk isn't a more popular round for le use. Cost must be prohibitive?? It's an exceptional round from 10feet to 200yards and to my ignorant self that is probably the range most officers would be working in. It has laid out both deer that I've hit with it, and as someone who came from slug guns and 50 cal muzzleloaders it impressed me to death. Add in its ability to be silenced and you have a real winner imo. I don't have anything against them rocking 223/5.56s though.

I'll work with the club to see what it takes to reserve a Saturday or sunday at the outdoor range. If it is doable then I'll get it set up. If it is easily doable it would be fun to do an NFA weekend too.

For the extra cost, you need extra benefit. I'm no expert on the round, but if you're not going to SBR and/or suppress, what do you really gain over a JSP 5.56 cartridge? Figure in there's a ton of existing logistics for the current round, and you'll need some reason to make the swap.

I know the FBI tested it, but don't know the results.

 

[1775usmarine]

I'd drive for a pcc meet and shoot.

 

[Drail]

A pistol cartridge works fine from either a carbine or a handgun if you can place the round where it needs to go. I have run Winchester Trapper carbines (16 in. bbls) for years in .357 and .44 and I would not want to go up against anyone using one that knows how to shoot. Now if you're talking about 300 yard targets then a rifle round IS definitely a better choice.

 

[daddyusmaximus]

For the extra cost, you need extra benefit. I'm no expert on the round, but if you're not going to SBR and/or suppress, what do you really gain over a JSP 5.56 cartridge? Figure in there's a ton of existing logistics for the current round, and you'll need some reason to make the swap.

I know the FBI tested it, but don't know the results.

There is no benefit in a full size gun, or even a 16" carbine. There is a benefit with that SBR you talked about. I wanted an SBR defensive gun. I knew it wouldn't be used beyond 150 or 200 yds, but it could be needed in small tight areas, or in a vehicle. The 5.56 gives up a lot of it's velocity is short barrels, so I went with the .300 Blackout. With the supersonic rounds (all I care to shoot) I can have my cake (small rifle) and eat it too. (keep my kinetic energy)

A pistol cartridge works fine from either a carbine or a handgun if you can place the round where it needs to go. I have run Winchester Trapper carbines (16 in. bbls) for years in .357 and .44 and I would not want to go up against anyone using one that knows how to shoot. Now if you're talking about 300 yard targets then a rifle round IS definitely a better choice.

I have a PCC too, a .44 mag lever gun. It can do anything I need it to inside 100 or 150 yds. You are correct in that the .44 mag is great out of a carbine barrel, but it's a rimmed cartridge, so there ain't no AR (or ANY semi-auto) available in it. It would be great as a hunting or defensive gun for around the home, (why I got it) but not so great in an all out combat environment. (why I got the SBR)

Just covering my bases here. Probably never need either one again.




I hope.

 

[Ggreen]

For the extra cost, you need extra benefit. I'm no expert on the round, but if you're not going to SBR and/or suppress, what do you really gain over a JSP 5.56 cartridge? Figure in there's a ton of existing logistics for the current round, and you'll need some reason to make the swap.

I know the FBI tested it, but don't know the results.

Results were positive from what I read, but cost and availability was prohibitive, and I also believe that there weren't quite as many effective loads as there is available now. From an LE perspective, why do agencies not run sbr's with suppressors? Again cost, but that shouldn't matter for an sbr compared to a carbine, cost coming into effect with the suppressors. I would think that having a 10.5" sbr with a suppressor on it would be preferred to a 16" carbine. I've never had to get one out of the mount in the cruisers, but shorter barrels seem like they would be easier. And suppressors seem like an easy call. Witt Machine has their new canooter valve suppressor that vents gases, has a small form factor, and is full auto rated, seems like something police could really benefit from. Easier on their ears training, easier in the field to keep communication flowing... I'd vote to fund it. Always interesting to hear from actual officers and their thoughts though.

 

[hopper68]

I have a PCC too, a .44 mag lever gun. It can do anything I need it to inside 100 or 150 yds. You are correct in that the .44 mag is great out of a carbine barrel, but it's a rimmed cartridge, so there ain't no AR (or ANY semi-auto) available in it. It would be great as a hunting or defensive gun for around the home, (why I got it) but not so great in an all out combat environment. (why I got the SBR) .

If one can find one, there used to be a .44 mag auto carbine.
[video=youtube;oqmetcMMglE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqmetcMMglE[/video]

[video=youtube;Azzn0zs_f0o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azzn0zs_f0o[/video]

 

[Sdleach08]

Fun to shoot and inexpensive ammo. Not much use for protection as much as an accurate rifle or shotgun.

 

[bwframe]

[video=youtube;5EhOGVuq7uo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EhOGVuq7uo&feature=em-lsp[/video]

 

[KJQ6945]

Good video BW, thanks for posting.

 

[KJQ6945]

We need to do an ingo PCC shoot. Seems to be a hot enough topic over the last year or so. I may have a suitable range to host a decent sized group. It would be nice to put some side by side and compare. And I really want to shoot your MPX. I ended up building an ar9 to test over the winter for competition suitability, but I think I'll end up buying something purpose built and engineered for 9mm when bonuses come up...

Since this has been bumped, have you picked a date yet?

Make it happen.

 

[DeadeyeChrista'sdad]

You guys are gonna hate this.
As I alluded to in another thread, I was at the range the other day, sighting in my 995.

There was another gentleman next to me, shooting some sort of a EBR pistol.
Upon inquiry, it turned out to be an MPX pistol with a Romeo red dot.

THEN, he asked if I'd like to take a few shots.
Heck yes!
I'm an unapologetic sig fanboy, so I jumped at the opportunity.

In retrospect, I did like shooting it. And the romeo was nice.
Given my choices, I take one of those setups over 3 or 4 of my hi points.

But I honestly enjoyed shooting the hi point more.

 

[churchmouse]

You guys are gonna hate this.
As I alluded to in another thread, I was at the range the other day, sighting in my 995.

There was another gentleman next to me, shooting some sort of a EBR pistol.
Upon inquiry, it turned out to be an MPX pistol with a Romeo red dot.

THEN, he asked if I'd like to take a few shots.
Heck yes!
I'm an unapologetic sig fanboy, so I jumped at the opportunity.

In retrospect, I did like shooting it. And the romeo was nice.
Given my choices, I take one of those setups over 3 or 4 of my hi points.

But I honestly enjoyed shooting the hi point more.

We need to have a intervention.........