St Mary's is NOT gun friendly

[mrortega]

^ Hey, aren't you that zoo guy?

Did you go around in grade school and poke kids in the eye then try to get a fight started???

 

[24Carat]

Just an FYI for the new guys that have recently stumbled onto this thread:

lrahm was the cop involved in the hospital and since this thread we have both buried the hatchet and are friends now so there is certainly a happy ending here.

I have also talked to WillyUSMC and while we are not friends we have also come to an understanding so there is no more negativity in this thread anymore and I will leave everything intact for new guys to be able to read and learn from it like many of us have.

Feel free to ask questions or state your opinions about what happened as well.

(Me yelling over shoulder) "Hey honey, come here and look at this, that TF guy I was talking about doesn't have fangs or blood running from the corner of his mouth !!"

 

[Double T]

I can't say TLDR. This has been one of the most educational threads I have ever read.

Kudos for not losing your cool with the officer. If anyone would threaten me to not see either one of my boys there would be hell to pay. People say instances like this make the anti crowd drool, I say your demeanor and education on IC/2a are to be commended. This has to be one of the stories they don't want to get out!

Also, at what point does it become acceptable for a "business" to infringe our RTKBA? Why not "no crosses", "no stars of David", "no (insert religious symbol/figure here"?

I consider our RTBA equal with anyone's right to wear a religious decoration into these same buildings

They are trying to squash the right that is keeping them from trampling all the others.

Colt is a great name btw, our lil ones are based on my two favorite OT figures. +1 if you guess

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I can't say TLDR. This has been one of the most educational threads I have ever read.

Kudos for not losing your cool with the officer. If anyone would threaten me to not see either one of my boys there would be hell to pay. People say instances like this make the anti crowd drool, I say your demeanor and education on IC/2a are to be commended. This has to be one of the stories they don't want to get out!

Also, at what point does it become acceptable for a "business" to infringe our RTKBA? Why not "no crosses", "no stars of David", "no (insert religious symbol/figure here"?

I consider our RTBA equal with anyone's right to wear a religious decoration into these same buildings

They are trying to squash the right that is keeping them from trampling all the others.

Colt is a great name btw, our lil ones are based on my two favorite OT figures. +1 if you guess

While I do not agree with the principle, but private businesses are in fact private property and retain all rights associated with them except were prohibited by law. Right now the law only would prohibit them from denying employment based on religion and also treating someone with a life threatening condition but that is only because it is a hospital.

They actually COULD ban crosses AFAIK, but I doubt they would since it is a catholic run hospital . That must be why they want to ban guns too...


It also does aggravate me that they don't in fact ban ALL guns, they have armed security and any cop is more than welcome to bring his firearm inside and in plain view as well. I wish they would change their signs to the more correct:

NO FIREARMS ALLOWED
EXCEPT FOR THE ANNOINTED CLASS

It just bugs me that just because people have the preconception that cops are these overly trained and capable superhumans they have the ability to not assassinate leaders, take over buildings, mass murder, have an accident etc anymore than anyone else. Statistically police have more accidents with guns than normal citizens.

I certainly don't blame cops for carrying places where mere civilians cannot becasue I certainly would. In fact I thought it was crazy that lrahm didn't carry when he went on vacation last summer.

 

[Rookie]

I still think you had contractual interest.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Colt is a great name btw, our lil ones are based on my two favorite OT figures. +1 if you guess

Thanks, my wife picked it out! I would guess Moses and Elijah. With a side bet of Jerhemiah.

 

[rw496]

A terry stop requires RAS. Even then you don't have to provide ID unless accused of an infraction or ordinance violation. Correct?

Greeno vs. State
Starr vs. State

Terry Stop you definitely need RAS and you must provide ID if that burden is met by the officer.(He doesn't have to explain it to you. That is what court is for) In Greeno the encounter was an attempt at a consensual encounter during which the citizen is free to disregard the officer and walk away..that was properly suppressed. Starr is a very brief decision that simply stated that the specific Indiana Code for refusal to identify because of its requirement of being stopped for infraction or ordinance does not apply to a passenger who was stopped because of the driver committing a violation...I agree. I pointed out in some other thread I was ranting in that, in that case, better would have been to charge the passenger for False Informing due to the false information he provided during the stop..and the crime they were investigating to which he provided false information would have been invasion of privacy due to the presence of a restraining order revealed when the driver's information was run.
Anyway,

 

[Somemedic]

The pattern I see here isn't whether the OP was in compliance with the request of security, he wasn't given the chance to comply. The problem he suffered from was "contempt of security guard". The guard had a h-on when OP refused to give his name. And im only 15 pages in.

If the OP is leaving AND has a weapon that you do not want on sitea and the safety of the other patients and visitors and staff is paramount and he os refusing to give his name and the situation is eacalting and on lookers are now paying more attention to than their sick loves ones and you have to call PD for back up....

STEP ASIDE AND LET THE MAN GO THROUGH, LET THE MAN GO THROUGH

I think its quite clear that Jackboot jr had a bad case of little man syndrome and was going to make you give him your name, period. He saw dowh which child you put down and could easily ask a nurse for your name, glean it from the patients chart, etc.

I get the same mentally challenged crap from the contracted deficients they hire up here at St Marys. I have a fire dep't uniform on and I need a hall pass to grab supplies.

Give a guy a badge sometimes....sheesh

 

[Rookie]

2 am. You're on patrol. You see me walking down the street with a baseball bat. Suspicious? Enough for a Terry stop (if not, please add enough to make it enough for a Terry stop)? You stop me, ask what I'm doing, and ask me for ID. I answer that I'm going home and refuse to show ID. After some verbal judo, I still refuse. What could I be charged with?

Please, if my scenario isn't justifiable, just add enough to make it Terry. Don't stack it in your favor (report of mail boxes smashed or something).

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Rw496, are you saying that even though there no punishment or reprocussion for not identifying yourself besides an ordinance or infraction that you STILL have to? What are they going to do tell on me to my mommy?

They could ask me until they are blue in the face or until it reaches the point of harrassment, there is no need to ID oneself in Indiana to ANYONE. Whether or not you should based on morality is NOT what we are discussing here. The saying of "But you can't make me!" actually works here.

 

[Double T]

Thanks, my wife picked it out! I would guess Moses and Elijah. With a side bet of Jerhemiah.

I wasn't condoning any of their actions btw...just being aggravated

+1/2

Kaleb and Joshua

 

[mrortega]

Thanks, my wife picked it out! I would guess Moses and Elijah. With a side bet of Jerhemiah.

Never thought of those. I thought it meant Over Time. I wondered why anyone would saddle their poor kids with names like that. "Time for dinner Time and A Half. Tell Double Time to wash his hands."

 

[ATM]

Never thought of those. I thought it meant Over Time. I wondered why anyone would saddle their poor kids with names like that. "Time for dinner Time and A Half. Tell Double Time to wash his hands."

Easy Money and Gravy Train from next door are going to eat with us.

 

[Double T]

Double T is a nickname I got as a kid...as in my initials

 

[rw496]

2 am. You're on patrol. You see me walking down the street with a baseball bat. Suspicious? Enough for a Terry stop (if not, please add enough to make it enough for a Terry stop)? You stop me, ask what I'm doing, and ask me for ID. I answer that I'm going home and refuse to show ID. After some verbal judo, I still refuse. What could I be charged with?

Please, if my scenario isn't justifiable, just add enough to make it Terry. Don't stack it in your favor (report of mail boxes smashed or something).

OK. You may have learned first year of law school that probable cause and reasonable suspicion and the presence thereof is determined by the court. The officer can only articulate the facts that made him believe he had met that burden in order to "seize" a citizen, whether investigatory or custodial arrest. In order to meet the much lesser burden of reasonable suspicion I must believe that you have committed or are about to commit a crime...it is afoot as they say. If I "seize" you while investigating the possibility of a crime that has been or is about to be committed you are then compelled to provide identification at my request. If you obstruct or interfere with my investigation during the lawful execution of my duties by not providing identification you are Resisting Law Enforcement.
However, if I approach you for no particular reason and demand the same you can tell me to go pound sound as you are all so eager to do.

 

[rw496]

I should add that if it is later determined by the courts that at least reasonable suspicion did not exist and I acted unreasonably, I could be held civilly liable.

 

[ATM]

...you can tell me to go pound sound as you are all so eager to do.

Not necessarily eager


...but willing.

 

[mtgasten]

I've been reading posts on INGO for a little while now, and finally decided to register and weigh in on this issue. It sounds to me like the Security Officer was just doing his job in enforcing the hospital policy, and that you were much less than compliant with him. I understand that it was not posted anywhere, but it does not have to be posted on private property for it to be a valid regulation of that facility, and when he approached you to inform you, I think it could have been better handled, in the fact maybe you could have been more willing to comply with his requests. I strongly believe that much of the anti-gun sentiment, is brought on by law abiding citizens that have a very poor attitude about their carrying status. Yes it is legal to carry open or concealed in Indiana, but when approached by a uniformed, armed, Security Officer, maybe your compliance with his requests, would have made it easier for him to talk to you in a more private manner, and avoided the "huge scene" that it caused. If it was as huge of a scene as you have described perhaps the LEO felt you were displaying disorderly conduct with your noncompliance with the Security Officer, thus giving him probable cause to request ID from you.
I am absolutely as pro-carry and pro 2nd Amendment as they come, but I also believe strongly in discretion and good common sense. I don"t know of any hospitals that are really "Gun Friendly" so to speak of. I understand that you feel as if your rights have been infringed upon, but these all seem like very reasonable requests from the Security Officer. I'm sure that the main concern of the hospitals security dept is safety for everyone. How do they know that you are a law abiding citizen and not some thug, if you refuse to show them your valid permit? Its incidents like these that lead people to being anti gun, and that make us gun owners/carriers look bad as a whole, in the eye of the general public. ( Just FYI I don't really care about pleasing John Q Public, but its certainly a good idea to keep a positive image of gun owners, rather than give anti-gun folks and even people who are on the fence about the issue something to make a bad example of, especially when it comes close to elections). Anyways I'm sure that I've pissed in some folks cheerios with this post, but I make no apologies and completely stand behind all I have said. There are two sides to every story and we have been given yours, and no others. Best of luck to you in "ripping a few people some new Aholes". Also your comment about " no one told my wife she couldn't carry" further shows you've taken nothing away from this, and that you've got some growing up to do. I would certainly think that as a new father with a baby in the nicu you'd be more focused on that, rather than pushing the limits and paving your own road to getting yourself and/or your wife banned from the hospital. Best of luck to you.

let me guess...your a security guard? rofl lol

 

[rw496]

Not necessarily eager


...but willing.

That avatar really creeps me out

 

[mrortega]

That avatar really creeps me out

Kinda reminds me of that evil chinees boss on the boat in "The Sand Pebbles."