St Mary's is NOT gun friendly

[cow35f]

Just saying!!

Couldn't this be avoided if business just publicaly posted there policies and did not assume everyone entering there facility to be able to read minds?

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Couldn't this be avoided if business just publicaly posted there policies and did not assume everyone entering there facility to be able to read minds?

Close... But the REAL question would be "Couldn't this be avoided if businesses just allowed Licensed firearm owners in without a hassel? That way there would be no "guessing" involved. In all honesty I wouldn't even mind going to the security desk everyday to check in and show them my LTCH. In fact, July 1st I am going to the Vanderburgh Civic Center to change a name on my water bill and I will do just that very same thing.

 

[Hammerhead]

Couldn't this be avoided if business just publicaly posted there policies and did not assume everyone entering there facility to be able to read minds?

No. "Policies" or "rules" do not equal law. I have no obligation to follow a "policy" or a "rule".

Neither is the OP, neither are you. The OP has elected, of his own accord, to compromise with the staff at the hospital and not carry after this incident. He would be well within his rights to forgo that compromise and carry again, as he still does not have to follow a policy. He might be considered dishonest, or a scoundrel if he did so, but that is his choice.

 

[yotewacker]

You guys will burn me for this I'm sure.
Some of the problem I see is the officer was doing his job wanting to see a permit. If you had a permit just show him that you are legal and get it over with. He was being nice about it.
What if an unlicensed dumb a*** comes in to the hospital and his gun goes off in the next room, goes through the wall and hurts you son Colt. You would sue the hospital for all you could because of a situation like this. And because the cop saw you and did nothing, your his responsibility. So rather than to make a fuss. Just show your permit and leave. It keeps all the legal bad stuff off the cops responsibility.

It's kinda like a lawman catching you driving drunk, gives you a break, and follows you home. Then after you get home you get back in your car and go back to the bar. On the way you hit and kill someone. Then you tell your attorney because the family of the deceased is suing you that a cop took you home earlier. Bingo the cops job and and financial responsibility is on the line because he gave someone a break. And it come back to bite him in the A**.

 

[Hammerhead]

You guys will burn me for this I'm sure.
Some of the problem I see is the officer was doing his job wanting to see a permit. If you had a permit just show him that you are legal and get it over with. He was being nice about it.
What if an unlicensed dumb a*** comes in to the hospital and his gun goes off in the next room, goes through the wall and hurts you son Colt. You would sue the hospital for all you could because of a situation like this. And because the cop saw you and did nothing, your his responsibility. So rather than to make a fuss. Just show your permit and leave. It keeps all the legal bad stuff off the cops responsibility.

It's kinda like a lawman catching you driving drunk, gives you a break, and follows you home. Then after you get home you get back in your car and go back to the bar. On the way you hit and kill someone. Then you tell your attorney because the family of the deceased is suing you that a cop took you home earlier. Bingo the cops job and and financial responsibility is on the line because he gave someone a break. And it come back to bite him in the A**.

You're missing the part where he said that the LEO, lrahm, came in and asked to see his LTCH. The LEO then demanded to see ID, and wouldn't let him leave until he submitted to the unlawful request.

After the LTCH was presented, any inquiry into firearms must cease. As he wasn't driving, breaking an ordinance or infraction, the request of ID is unlawful and unnecessary. He was leaving the hospital, even before he was asked to, so he wasn't "trespassing" either.

Everything else you're talking about is conjecture.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

You guys will burn me for this I'm sure.

YEP

Some of the problem I see is the officer was doing his job wanting to see a permit.

DID YOU EVEN READ ANY OF IT BEFORE JUMPING TO YOUR ESTEEMED CONCLUSIONS? GO BACK AND REREAD THE FIRST COUPLE OF PAGES AND GET BACK WITH ME ON THAT -1 FOR READING COMPREHENSION.

If you had a permit just show him that you are legal and get it over with.

NO ONE IN INDIANA HAS A PERMIT AND I SHOWED HIM THE INSTANT HE ASKED, AS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED I AM NOT A JEDI MIND READER. IT IS NOT MY FAULT THAT HE DID NOT ASK TO SEE MY "PERMIT" (LTCH) UNTIL AFTER HE DETAINED AND THREATENED ME.

He was being nice about it.

SAYS WHO???

What if an unlicensed dumb a*** comes in to the hospital and his gun goes off in the next room, goes through the wall and hurts you son Colt.

SO ALL UNLICENSED GUNS "GO OFF" ON THEIR OWN WITH ARMOR PIERCING HEAT SEEKING INCENDIARY DEPLETED URANIUM NUCLEAR TIPPED WARHEADS THAT PREFER DEFENSLESS WOMEN AND CHILDREN?

You would sue the hospital for all you could because of a situation like this.

YOU DON'T KNOW ME OR WHAT I WOULD DO IN ANY SITUATION, WAIT, ARE YOU THE MIND READER EVERYONE KEEPS MISTAKING ME FOR?

And because the cop saw you and did nothing, your his responsibility. So rather than to make a fuss. Just show your permit and leave. It keeps all the legal bad stuff off the cops responsibility.

EXPLAIN TO ME USING MY OWN WORDS WHERE I AM THE ONE WHO MADE THE FUSS, I CHOSE OPTION #2 OF THE ORIGINAL GUARDS OPTIONS GIVEN TO ME, IF THEY WOULD HAVE LET ME CARRY OUT THAT REQUEST NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED.

It's kinda like a lawman catching you driving drunk, gives you a break, and follows you home. Then after you get home you get back in your car and go back to the bar. On the way you hit and kill someone. Then you tell your attorney because the family of the deceased is suing you that a cop took you home earlier. Bingo the cops job and and financial responsibility is on the line because he gave someone a break. And it come back to bite him in the A**.

SO NOW YOU ARE COMPARING ME TO A DRUNK DRIVER? WTF? I CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT THREAD IT WAS, HELL MAYBE THIS ONE, BUT SOME GUY WAS TELLING EVERYONE HOW TO CARRY AND WHERE AND WHY. TURNS OUT THE GUY HAS NEVER CARRIED A GUN IN PUBLIC AND DOES NOT HAVE HIS LTCH.

THAT IS WHAT THIS REMINDS ME OF. SO NEXT TIME YOU HAVE THE NEED TO TELL YOUR FEELINGS TO SOMEONE TELL OPRAH. IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A SERIOUS DEBATE ABOUT THE MERITS OF THIS THREAD, CATCH UP ON WHATS GOING ON AND STATE FACTS, NOT FEELINGS.

Sorry for the rant, I have had a REALLLLLLLY bad day so far and this just struck me bad, but it is exactly what I think.

 

[T.Lex]

(Psst.... TF.... Oprah's not on TV anymore.)

 

[Titanium_Frost]

(Psst.... TF.... Oprah's not on TV anymore.)

LMAO that is an awesome burn. I really didn't know that (I don't watch TV at all)

 

[T.Lex]

haha

No worries, her last episode was yesterday, I think. My wife told me so.

At least, I think that's what she said. It was either that, or "Dinner's ready." I wasn't really paying attention....

 

[Titanium_Frost]

That's funny, my wife said "he must be married" when I read your thread to her. She LOL'd.

 

[yotewacker]

Titanium_Frost

Re-read the post for your sake. Like you ask. If you would have presented it at first (volunteered) it. Things would have went much smoother. I like your honesty. But a little thought on yours and the officers part, would have been a much smoother chat. So far with my experiences with the public, I've never had threaten or get loud. Most people cooperate and go on there way with no hassle.
And Yes, Oprah had her last show. finally no more Oprah on TV. I thought that was funny.
On the OVWI, I was just trying to get you to understand the responsibility the officer has, and what he is trying to protect. Everyone in the hospital. This instance is one of the reasons I think we should CC always.

 

[Benny]

Who is the member who was giving carry advice that has never carried?

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Titanium_Frost

Re-read the post for your sake. Like you ask. If you would have presented it at first (volunteered) it. Things would have went much smoother. I like your honesty. But a little thought on yours and the officers part, would have been a much smoother chat. So far with my experiences with the public, I've never had threaten or get loud. Most people cooperate and go on there way with no hassle.
And Yes, Oprah had her last show. finally no more Oprah on TV. I thought that was funny.
On the OVWI, I was just trying to get you to understand the responsibility the officer has, and what he is trying to protect. Everyone in the hospital. This instance is one of the reasons I think we should CC always.

I take it you are an officer, I welcome your point of view on this. I don't look at it like it was MY responsibility to "smooth things over" as I am not the one who has training in that area. I was simply doing what I knew was required of me, I was actually concerned with what they would do if I reached toward the direction of my gun to retreive my wallet. I do not like anyone, especially cops, postuering and trying to intimidate me. Could I have handled the situation better? Well if your definition of better is as little disturbance as possible then yes, I didn't have to stand my ground at all. I could have caved to his demands regaurdless of whether or not I had to. On the other hand if your defintion of better is firmly defending my rights as listed by law and resisting requests that are not powers granted to the officer then I believe I could have done better as I was under a LOT of stress BEFORE the cops and grew tired of the encounter and decided to take it up with superiors after the fact. On your last note, I think that if MORE people would OC then we wouldn't have the raised tensions that we do with cop/citizen encounters.

Who is the member who was giving carry advice that has never carried?

I am not sure if it was even this thread and it wasn't directed at me.

 

[yotewacker]

I have lots of experience in this area and was just trying to make it easier for you the next time you encounter a LEO.
I had a friend LEO in NY that OC always. He was in a bar as it was being robbed. The bad guys said for everyone to hit the floor. When he did, his shirt rose up making his gun visible. The next thing he heard was a bang and a sharp pain. The bad guy said he shot him because he had a gun. If it was CC. He might never have been shot.
I carried a gun for 34 years and been in law enforcement for 13 years.
Just trying to help you some. Meant no harm.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I have lots of experience in this area and was just trying to make it easier for you the next time you encounter a LEO.
I had a friend LEO in NY that OC always. He was in a bar as it was being robbed. The bad guys said for everyone to hit the floor. When he did, his shirt rose up making his gun visible. The next thing he heard was a bang and a sharp pain. The bad guy said he shot him because he had a gun. If it was CC. He might never have been shot.
I carried a gun for 34 years and been in law enforcement for 13 years.
Just trying to help you some. Meant no harm.

No problem, I love a GOOD discussion about this stuff. Sorry about your friend, was he killed? That is a very good point, and one I take seriously every time I OC, but at the hospital, I was trying to CC. I had an officer sized 1911 in a IWB Galco copy of the Supertuck with a tshirt over that. I believe what happened is I reached down to move my wife's purse for the nurse and my shirt came up over the grip. Because in the NICU you have to where hospital gowns over your clothes I did not feel my shirt come up and so I sat there for who knows how long with my gun sticking out accidentally. In fact, I was wearing the same gun in the same holster for days while we were laboring and I helped deliver my son into the world while there was a .45 strapped to my side. Not a prouder moment in my life.

 

[finity]

Who is the member who was giving carry advice that has never carried?

It was Bumpshadow & it was this thread. It was during my "personal attack on"...er...um...my discussion with him.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Thanks finity, I knew it was somewhere, I've been looking since Benny posted that.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

...Talking about gun accident rates in an irrelavant manner doesn't make them irrelavant. An idiot with a gun is just as dangerous to himself and others as a violent criminal.

I don't carry, yet. I have been the military as a weapons tech and have been trained with them. And I am also pro-gun. But I'm not a thug about it either...

Here is the excerpt. I believe he was talking to finity and referring to Bill's posts at the same time.

 

[BumpShadow]

Nice job quoting only the part of my post you thought proved your point. What I said was, "I respect their rights. I respect my own more, and as is so often stated, their rights to "swing their fist" ends at the tip of my nose. My gun on my hip does not infringe on their property rights. Their choice to disarm me if I'm there to see my newborn DOES infringe on my safety. I'll leave if I'm asked to, but I will certainly voice my opposition to their policy, because that also is MY right."

I only cited the part that meant anything. But since you insist, I'll disect your whole post this time. Saying you respect other people rights, but your own more is an oxymoronic statement. Basically what your saying you don't about anyone elses rights as long they don't infringe on your own. And you don't care if your rights infringe of anyone elses. Your gun on your hip absolutey infringes on their property rights if they've have decided they don't want guns on their property.

To reiterate, my gun on my hip does not infringe anyone's rights. A tin star security geek with more arrogance than intelligence demanding my gun because he thinks he has authority to do so is going to be disappointed because he IS infringing on rights.

To retiterate, yes it does. There are ways to protest the policy, but when the "tin star security geek with more arrogance than intelligence" ask you to leave or whatever is not that time. Of course, the correct ways to proptest it involve or work and tact, and less grandstanding.

You're not going to convince me of the correctness of your opinion by insulting either my morals, my ethics, my patriotism, or my choice of username. I've already said I respect their rights: To continue to do so, I have to consider myself first. Rights are an individual, not a collective thing. If I am asked to leave, simple matter, I'll leave. That's not infringing on anyone's rights.

I not trying convice you of anything. In the part of my post you didn't include, I said you are free to any option you want. Rights are individual, but your rights don't trump other people rights.

For a guy who's never carried other than when he was ordered or given permission from someone he called a "superior" to do so, you have no business "calling out" anyone and you certainly have no right to start calling thug and hypocrite. My values are in correct priority. I take care of myself and my family first. Kinda like when you're on a plane and they tell you to put your own oxygen mask on first before anyone else's... because you can't help them if you're already unconscious or dead.

So now your going to put words in my mouth? I said I don't currently carry. And I do have every right to call anyone I want a thug, hypocrite, or anything else I want. The Frst Amendement gives me that right. Just because you don't agree doesn't make me wrong in calling you one, which I wasn't. I said your value system is thuggish and hypocritial. Which your statment of:

I respect their rights. I respect my own more

IS Thuggish and hypocritial. How can you respect some elses rights if you think your rights trump theirs? Itmakes no sense.

I suppose if I did what they instructed, that would make me selfish, self-centered, hypocritical or deserving of some other insult from you.

I find your attitude contemptible.

Bill

You can find my attitude whatever you want, it makes no difference to me.

It's also my Right to "cite" that the sky is green, Sarah Brady is a staunch pro-gun supporter & that I'm a hard-line conservative.

But just because I say it doesn't make it so, no matter how many times I say it.

True or not is in the eye of the beholder. They believe they are safer without everyone caring a gun. It is, say it with me now, their right.

Where?

I must have missed that. Please quote where he said that it is not the hospital's Right to ban guns from their property.

See above.

What the heck is up with this new trend in saying that debating a topic is somehow a "personal attack"?

I didn't attack you. I simply used your words & logic to point out the flaws in your stated position.

You called me anti-gun. Which I am not and am offended for being called so. ANd you tried to point what you saw as flaws.

Agreed, but that's a far cry from the idea that "many would have been no better off, and might have made the situation worse, if they did have one. Since useing a gun requires a level of skill and bravery that many do not have."

That is an anti-gun elitist "only one" attitude that is not borne out by the facts.

Their you go again. Now I'm an anti-gun elitist. If being an anti-gun elitist means I would people to go out and shoot their gun once or twice before believing that they do anything with it, than fine, I'm an anti-gun elitist.

Jsut because one has a gun doesn't mean they can hit their target with said gun. Or that in the heat of the moment they have the bravery to use it. They may, they may not. But the gun itself doesn't decide either.

The vast majority of gun-owners throughout history have had no formal training to attain that supposedly illusive "skill & bravery" but nonetheless have been successful in defending themselves with those guns.

Where did I say "formal training"? I said training, just training. Lots of things fall into that definition.

While it obviously is better to practice & even get formal training I won't go so far to say that without that formal training that they would "make the situation worse" for themselves.

Obvious to you and me. But there lots of people that would think that a gun gives them instant accuracy. They think that buying a $2000 rifle will make up for their lack of skill. Or that in the heat of the moment they will rise to the challenge and become instant marksman.

Since you seem to think that lack of training is the leading cause of gun accidents then could you please direct me to a major study (not put out by a group with an overtly anti-gun agenda) that supports your contention that most accidents occur in the "untrained" group?

Where did I say that? All I said was don't discount those stats as irrevelevant.

As far as I know there has been no study that points to the fact that people without "training" are more dangerous to others than those WITH "training".

I would agree with that.

Cops are trained but yet they kill & injure more innocent people every year than non-LEO's.

Indiana doesn't require any training to get a LTCH but there is nothing that shows we are more at risk from gun accidents than states that DO require training & in some instances we are SAFER than in training required states.

Accidents don't TYPICALLY occur because of lack of training. They occur because of stupid unthinking decisions. Those can be made by trained individuals just as easily as those with no training at all. Sometimes those people with training are the WORST offenders because they think that "I'm the only one in this room qualified to handle this weapon" BANG!!!...Ow... They get complacent.

I would also agree with that. It still doesn't prove that stats on accidental gun injuries are irrelevant.

Then before you do carry I would insist that you please report to the nearest "skill & bravery" assessment center so that someone other than YOU can decide whether you meet the required standards to be able to defend yourself or your family.

You see, that seems to be a problem. Those who demand others get training before being "allowed" to carry a gun for their defense are those who have decided that "everyone else is dangerous with a gun but I'm not".

Well...who say's? You? If you can't take my word that I'm not dangerous don't expect me to take your word that you aren't either.

Again with the personal attacks. Where did I say "formal training before permit" again? Oh thats right, I didn't. All I said, as anyone on here would agree, is that after you get your gun, to go shoot it and get comfortable with it. I can see your itching to smack someone is "anti-gun" down, but that is not me.

Then that brings us to our next dilemma...

Who gets to decide what those standards of "skill & bravery" are? You may think that those "standards" are a "no-brainer to you and me" but I'll guarantee you that if someone like Sarah Brady was put in charge of setting those "standards" that NO ONE (well, except her & Josh Sugarman ) would be allowed to own, much less carry, a gun for self-defense.

Again, wrong agrument.

Don't get me wrong here...

I have stated a similar thing in another thread about BWW's.

In a perfect world I would agree that to carry onto someone else's "PUBLIC" (i.e. not strictly private, i.e. open to the public for business) property knowing that they don't want you to is not in keeping with the strict letter of "shall not be infringed".

The problem is we don't live in a perfect world.

Good, we are making progress.

Does the company have the right to inspect my undergarments before they allow me onto their property?

Do they have the right to demand me disclose my bank account or SS information before they allow me onto their property?

In a perfect world, probably, but not in the real world.

I don't know of any reasonable person who would think that a company can violate your privacy as a condition of allowing you the benefit of buying a loaf of bread or even getting medical care. Why should they also be able to deny you the Right of self-defense as a condition of entry, either?

On the other hand, there is a limit though.

If your actions are a disruption to the smooth operation of the business then they can ask you to stop or make you leave. Just like in the BWW's thread.

Carrying concealed against the owners wishes is not a disruption. Neither is carrying a banana when there is a "no bananas" sign. Once the banana or gun is revealed it can be, though. At that point you have no recourse to complain about the actions by the owner in making you leave. You knew you were taking a chance & you lost. Just leave.

Your half right. CC is not a disprution, but it is still violating the policy. You just haven't been caught yet. There are ways to go about changing policies, and I'll get into that a little farther down.

OTOOH, if the owner doesn't tell you or make it known in some way what the "rules" are then getting crappy with YOU is not "right" either. It goes both ways.

I agree that that was an oversight on the hosiptal's part.

Now we're back to the real world.

The property owner has the Right to control his property. Bill has the Right to self-defense & carry the tool that he feels is the most effective means toward that end.

Again, correct. But one can defend themselves without a firearm. And in many cases a gun is not always the best option.

Rights aren't absolute.

When two Rights conflict you have to compromise & balance those two conflicting Rights.

Carrying a concealed gun into a "no guns" business is a reasonable compromise, IMHO. Bill still gets to effectively defend himself if necessary & the business is not disrupted. To me, that's a win-win.

IMHO, it is not a compromise. Its just skirting around the policy. If you have an objection to a rule or policy, there a ways to deal with them. I'll list some, but these are by no means all. A petition to the board of directors is a good start. Non-violent prostests or sit-ins are good if the board holds firm. You see where I'm going with this? Granted these options don't have the grand-standing or bravado of thumbing your nose at a guard or an officer, but they are far more effective.

Lastly, I'm not giving advice, just my humble .

 

[Bunnykid68]

Titanium......you have Jedi mind powers?

Thats freakin awesome.....yes..i would love to buy you a drink..