Should drugs be legalized ?

[churchmouse]

Join a church, go back to school, and get a legal job.... duh.

Never gonna happen (was that supposed to be purple)

That pack was never raised to work in the socially accepted way.
Get up at 6:00, get ready, off to a steady job for 8 to 10 hrs and come home.
They were not raised that way.

OK.......4

Steveh's safe.

 

[HoughMade]

None of us have the right to criminalize the mere vices of another, nor do we have the authority to delegate such an absurd function to any pack of thugs.

Apparently, we do.

 

[steveh_131]

Apparently, we do.

The fact that you do something does not mean you ever had the right to do it.

 

[Zoub]

Zoub, are you saying that we are doomed to an absolute end?

No, not at all. To skip all of the things we could discuss in person I would just say keeping this country together as 50 states is going to take drastic measures. We face what looks like new and unique challenges but they are not. There will be winners and losers.

If we took the people posting in here and met as a group I would bet we would find consensus on many points. This would include defining existing problems and possible solutions. We would all bring our strengths and expertise to the conversation. We are each a product of, or a slave to, our life experiences. My focus would be on predictable human behavior, probabilities, demographics and history. As my brother once said, I have the ability to figure out in less then 30 seconds a person's hot button and that one word that will trigger it. I have used that skill for both good and evil.

How we solve the problem stated by the OP is a model for how we will solve the others, of which there are many. It won't be solved here and I don't see Govt fixing it.

Deregulate drugs. Those who continue to rob will get shot or caught. Too many hanging out at one house in your hood, kids are not safe. House burns down. You don't see this now because there are entire areas that embrace the criminal culture and have destroyed sense of community.

As a kid I felt safe and we didn't have 911 to dial.

 

[HoughMade]

The fact that you do something does not mean you ever had the right to do it.

True as far as it goes, but the Courts have ruled on this many times and there is no Constitutionally protected right to do the drug of your choice and the Constitution allows for government regulation of drugs. That is current reality. If people want to have ethereal discussions about the nature of rights floating around in the cosmos that are neither recognized, nor protected, fine, but that's not where any change will come as to this issue.

 

[steveh_131]

If people want to have ethereal discussions about the nature of rights floating around in the cosmos that are neither recognized, nor protected, fine, but that's not where any change will come as to this issue.

The Founders had lots of discussions about rights that weren't recognized or protected at the time. They changed a few things.

 

[jamil]

Never gonna happen (was that supposed to be purple)

That pack was never raised to work in the socially accepted way.
Get up at 6:00, get ready, off to a steady job for 8 to 10 hrs and come home.
They were not raised that way.

OK.......4

Steveh's safe.

Toldja.

True as far as it goes, but the Courts have ruled on this many times and there is no Constitutionally protected right to do the drug of your choice and the Constitution allows for government regulation of drugs. That is current reality. If people want to have ethereal discussions about the nature of rights floating around in the cosmos that are neither recognized, nor protected, fine, but that's not where any change will come as to this issue.

That's the practical end of it. We like to talk all day long about how it oughta be, and that's how the original question is framed.

But it is how it is. I don't think we'll get all drugs legalized. Even on INGO where the discussions have a disproportionately large libertarian participation, there's enough disagreement on the subject. In the real world not enough people want legalization. I can believe all I want that people don't have a right to feel safe at my expense. Fat lot of good that does. I'm only one vote.

The Founders had lots of discussions about rights that weren't recognized or protected at the time. They changed a few things.

We are 10 or so generations past the founding of this country. That **** went out of style long ago. You start talking about founding principles and constitutional matters with most people and their eyes roll from their heads. After Chris Christie vowed during the debate to do ANYTHING to keep Americans safe, most people think he won the spat between him and Paul. I love to talk about how it should be. Yes. I think drugs should be legalized. It just ain't gonna happen.

 

[Libertarian01]

Drugs are nasty and make otherwise normal or well behaved people do very abnormal and illogical things. No one should knowingly incapacitate themselves by ingesting a chemical that is going to affect them in such a profound way.

Yet in reality many people do exactly that. Whether it is with alcohol, marijuana or much stronger chemicals many human beings find this method of escapism to be their tool for either coping with problems or heightening their enjoyment of pleasant experiences.

With criminalization a society will have problems and issues.

With legalization a society will have problems and issues.

So we cannot stick our heads in the sand and believe that one (1) course of action will result in a Utopian society that is without problems. We must face the reality that no matter what course we take problems will exist.

Over time I have come to believe that with legalization our problems will diminish and be much more manageable. Organized crime has always found a niche and it always will, but with legalization I believe their profit margins will drop substantially! They will have far less power and their violence will drop as the risk/reward equation will change. Killing rival gangs for hundreds of millions of dollars worth of territory is an understandable action, but what if the reward is only a few million dollars? The drive for the violence will still exist but on a far lesser scale.

By decriminalizing possession addicts may be more easily persuaded to seek help. Fear of LEO will drop, and some greater degree of cooperation on many subtle levels may occur. We see this with prostitution in Amsterdam, where prostitutes are not afraid of the police they cooperate as witnesses and victims far more willingly than where prostitution is criminalized.

Even while addicted a user may actually be able to hold a low paying job while feeding their habit due to a reduction in drug costs. This most certainly won't be universal but it will reduce crime at least to some degree when the addict only needs a hundred dollars a week instead of a thousand. How many functional alcoholics do we have in this country? Guys and gals who go out on most of their free time and get smashed yet still show up (mostly) to work and contribute to society.

Either way we do it society will wind up paying for drugs. Today we pay billions of dollars and probably spend billions of hours of time fighting the problem. I think it would be nice to only spend a few hundred million dollars on the problem and a few million hours on it instead. It would free us up to either enjoy more time or focus on other problems. Of course, it would kill jobs so some folks won't like that. I must be an evil... something for wanting to do that!

Regards,

Doug

 

[steveh_131]

We are 10 or so generations past the founding of this country. That **** went out of style long ago. You start talking about founding principles and constitutional matters with most people and their eyes roll from their heads.

Yeah, I know. I can still talk about it. I enjoy the eye-rolling from the statists.

 

[voidsherpa]

What do you mean by that?

Meth addicts do not peacefully stay in their basement. They WILL infringe upon your liberty to get THEIR next high at some point at the cost of innocent people.

 

[steveh_131]

Meth addicts do not peacefully stay in their basement. They WILL infringe upon your liberty to get THEIR next high at some point at the cost of innocent people.

The fact that some turn to violence to feed their habit does not make the habit in itself an infringement upon your liberties.

Those violent acts are, and should be, already illegal without the existence of drug prohibition.

 

[Zoub]

Meth addicts do not peacefully stay in their basement. They WILL infringe upon your liberty to get THEIR next high at some point at the cost of innocent people.

Addicts of any kind are:
Easy to spot
Don't blend in well
Don't make good decisions or plans
Are not overly stealthy

Career criminals are the ones you need to fear. The ones that break addicts knee caps when they don't pay. Make good plans to steal all of your stuff and are organized. That is why they call it organized crime. You never hear the words "today a group of highly organized meth heads stole everyone's stuff." You do hear how MS13 members kidnap, rape, torture and murder.

The user is not the problem. The substance is not the problem. People will always find ways to self destruct. Drugs will always exist. Our strategy is not working.

 

[jbombelli]

Meth addicts do not peacefully stay in their basement. They WILL infringe upon your liberty to get THEIR next high at some point at the cost of innocent people.

The proper solution is to arm yourself and be prepared.

 

[jamil]

The proper solution is to arm yourself and be prepared.

QFT

what's the percentage of addicts on the streets that son't get locked up on drug charges? Probably high enough that it doesn't have much impact on our safety. I suppose it makes us feel safe.

 

[steveh_131]

The proper solution is to arm yourself and be prepared.

Nailed it.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

I suppose it makes us feel safe.

I guess it's better to feel safe than to be safe.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

The fact that you do something does not mean you ever had the right to do it.

I happen to believe that by doing something, you have proven that you, in fact, do have the right.

I have the right to collect the stuff I need and cook me up some meth and get as high as I want to get. I even have the right to sneak into your garage at 3 in the morning and steal your leaf blower if I wanted to.

But part of the reason that I don't do those things is that I know that you have the right to shoot me if you catch me in your garage, and the police have the right to arrest me and take me to jail if they catch me. I weigh one thing against the other and decide to be a good citizen because it's just less stressful.

 

[2A_Tom]

Drugs have been legalized. Self medicating with controlled drugs is illegal. Producing drugs without legal safety protocols is illegal. Distributing drugs without proper licensing and paying applicable fees and taxes is illegal.

But who cares drugs never hurt anyone, why worry.

 

[steveh_131]

But who cares [STRIKE]drugs[/STRIKE] guns never hurt anyone, why worry.

Yes?

 

[churchmouse]

I happen to believe that by doing something, you have proven that you, in fact, do have the right.

I have the right to collect the stuff I need and cook me up some meth and get as high as I want to get. I even have the right to sneak into your garage at 3 in the morning and steal your leaf blower if I wanted to.

But part of the reason that I don't do those things is that I know that you have the right to shoot me if you catch me in your garage, and the police have the right to arrest me and take me to jail if they catch me. I weigh one thing against the other and decide to be a good citizen because it's just less stressful.

And far more rewarding.....