Should drugs be legalized ?

[steveh_131]

So what about the age old question: If you having your liberties infringes on me having my liberties, who is to sacrifice theirs?

First of all, a guy doing meth in his basement isn't infringing on any liberty of yours. I just want that to be crystal clear. Anything that he does do, because of his drug use, that harms you or your property is already illegal without prohibition.

But in a more general sense, I am of the opinion that the only legitimate purpose of government is to prevent individuals from infringing on the liberties of others. I hope that answers your question.

 

[steveh_131]

How do you figure? The only criminal element that would be eliminated would be the prohibition on selling and possessing it. The rest will remain the same. And I really don't think the cartels would simply walk away. Too much money.

I look at it as simple arithmetic.

Let's say a guy has a heroin habit. And let's say that habit costs him approximately $1,000 a week to stay high for the amount of time that he wants to be high. Then, let's say that he can average $250 pawning off items from each home burglary. He has to burglarize 4 homes a week in order to maintain his drug habit.

Now let's say that opiates are available at a price dictated by a free market, free of regulations. That same habit could probably be maintained for more like $50 a week. Now he only has to burglarize less than one home a month in order to maintain his habit, compared to the 16 he had to burglarize during prohibition.

How often do we see violent crimes committed by alcoholic criminals desperate for wine money? Not often, you can stay drunk on wine on the cheap (because it is no longer a black market).

 

[churchmouse]

I look at it as simple arithmetic.

Let's say a guy has a heroin habit. And let's say that habit costs him approximately $1,000 a week to stay high for the amount of time that he wants to be high. Then, let's say that he can average $250 pawning off items from each home burglary. He has to burglarize 4 homes a week in order to maintain his drug habit.

Now let's say that opiates are available at a price dictated by a free market, free of regulations. That same habit could probably be maintained for more like $50 a week. Now he only has to burglarize less than one home a month in order to maintain his habit, compared to the 16 he had to burglarize during prohibition.

How often do we see violent crimes committed by alcoholic criminals desperate for wine money? Not often, you can stay drunk on wine on the cheap (because it is no longer a black market).

You never met my brother..........Seriously.

OK.....3

 

[bulletsmith]

Here's something that I believe needs to be made clear. You do not decide what my version of liberty is, or if it is being infringed upon, anymore that I can decide for you.

So the guy does meth in his home. Invites friends over to do the same. I no longer feel safe having my kids play out in the yard with that element being so close. I feel that is an impingement on my pursuit of happiness. I want to call the liberty police!!!

Your view on what purpose government serves can only exist as you enjoy all of the benefits that have been put in place ahead of you. Because this country looks very different than it does today under your model. Even with all it's warts and scars.

 

[steveh_131]

You never met my brother..........Seriously.

I have addicts in my family. I know what it's about. But if there's something specific that you disagree with, I'm open to discussing it.

Here's something that I believe needs to be made clear. You do not decide what my version of liberty is, or if it is being infringed upon, anymore that I can decide for you.

Liberty is a word. It has a definition. Your peace of mind does not fall under that definition.

So the guy does meth in his home. Invites friends over to do the same. I no longer feel safe having my kids play out in the yard with that element being so close. I feel that is an impingement on my pursuit of happiness. I want to call the liberty police!!!

Sure you do. Just like the soccer mom who would just love to call the cops on the crazy christian redneck next door who has an evil black rifle in his bedroom and a rebel flag in his yard. She doesn't feel safe either. But feeling safe has nothing to do with liberty.

Your view on what purpose government serves can only exist as you enjoy all of the benefits that have been put in place ahead of you. Because this country looks very different than it does today under your model. Even with all it's warts and scars.

Heh, yeah. All the benefits of the drug war? Mountains of debt, prisons so crowded with druggies that sex offenders are set free? A police state with money being confiscated, homes being ransacked in the middle of the night, and old ladies terrorized by swat teams over the vague possibility of a prohibited plant? You're right, it would look a heck of a lot different under my model where people mind their own business.

 

[Libertarian01]

A few years ago the British came out with a report that said the entire worldwide war on drugs stopped a whopping 0.02% from getting to market.

So if we equate our "war on drugs" with World War II, not only did Hitler win, but he conquered the entire surface of the planet earth except for Ecuador! That is how effective our current plan is.

What we're doing right now clearly isn't a path to victory, so perhaps some sort of Plan B is required...?

Regards,

Doug

PS - And for those who just want to execute dealers like China does, that isn't working too well for them either.

 

[rambone]

Sure you do. Just like the soccer mom who would just love to call the cops on the crazy christian redneck next door who has an evil black rifle in his bedroom and a rebel flag in his yard. She doesn't feel safe either. But feeling safe has nothing to do with liberty.

 

[bulletsmith]

So. I disagree. lol. But it's late and this one would take quite some time to respond to. More tomorrow perhaps.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

There was a wise old captain in my department who was beloved by the the troops and therefore despised by the administration, largely owing to the fact that unlike them, he never lied to his troops or the public.

I once heard him describe his solution to the drug situation.

Legalize drugs. Take all the drugs that we have in the court property unit, set up stands on street corners and give them away to any adult who wants them. In a couple of weeks, when everyone who is going to die of an overdose has done so, send out crews with garbage trucks and pitchforks to police up the corpses. Bury them in a landfill. When the last truck dumps its last load this country won't have a "drug" war anymore than we have an "alcohol" war.

He was right, and if I could put his plan into operation I would.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Doing so only breeds an underground economy (a cartel, if you will) of folks smuggling from states that have less taxes. Cigs are $11 a pack in NYC, so it's no wonder so many people smuggle cigs into NY, or that people sell them by the cig on the street (the black guy killed by the cop's chokehold was selling cigs on the street).

Tax, yes. Extremely high tax? Nope.

Very good point. Punitive taxation stands as a de facto prohibition.

 

[voidsherpa]

First of all, a guy doing meth in his basement isn't infringing on any liberty of yours.

What a shortsighted belief.

 

[BigMatt]

What a shortsighted belief.

What do you mean by that?

 

[jamil]

You never met my brother..........Seriously.

OK.....3

All it takes is a bit of post cheese and the mouse can't not post! There will be a fourth. I'd bet steveh's liberty on it!

Here's something that I believe needs to be made clear. You do not decide what my version of liberty is, or if it is being infringed upon, anymore that I can decide for you.

So the guy does meth in his home. Invites friends over to do the same. I no longer feel safe having my kids play out in the yard with that element being so close. I feel that is an impingement on my pursuit of happiness. I want to call the liberty police!!!

Your view on what purpose government serves can only exist as you enjoy all of the benefits that have been put in place ahead of you. Because this country looks very different than it does today under your model. Even with all it's warts and scars.

How far are you willing to go with that? People don't have the right to feel safe, especially when doing so requires the resources of other people. I'm fine with government providing police services to enforce our laws. But we need to think about constraints on the kinds of laws we want. If we're going to use feelings to determine laws, then what freedoms could possibly ever transcend popular culture's desire to feel safe? You have a right to make yourself safe within the constraints of your personal resources.

 

[jamil]

Very good point. Punitive taxation stands as a de facto prohibition.

Which is the exact reason for the high tax in NY. They think they can tax people out of the behaviors they don't like. But people generally find a way to do what they want anyway. It's just that now society has made criminals of them for doing that.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I look at it as simple arithmetic.

Let's say a guy has a heroin habit. And let's say that habit costs him approximately $1,000 a week to stay high for the amount of time that he wants to be high. Then, let's say that he can average $250 pawning off items from each home burglary. He has to burglarize 4 homes a week in order to maintain his drug habit.

Now let's say that opiates are available at a price dictated by a free market, free of regulations. That same habit could probably be maintained for more like $50 a week. Now he only has to burglarize less than one home a month in order to maintain his habit, compared to the 16 he had to burglarize during prohibition.

How often do we see violent crimes committed by alcoholic criminals desperate for wine money? Not often, you can stay drunk on wine on the cheap (because it is no longer a black market).

I have never known of a heroin addict that saves his ill-gotten gains for a "rainy day." They steal, buy as much dope can, and burn through it as fast as they can. When they get the shakes again, they repeat the process. So while the drug may be cheaper, it does nothing to stop the regular habit of their criminal activity.
This also follow the assumption that drugs won't be regulated and taxed, which I think we all know isn't true. Now will the domestic manufacture and transportation offset the taxes making it a viable alternative to foreign made dope? I don't know.

Finally, I think it is a pipe dream to believe that organized crime will simply cut their losses, from a multi-billion dollar industry, and simply walk away. Organized crime has always dealt with "legal" things, but simply did the run around concerning taxation and transport. But in those early days, they weren't as powerful. Then the govt made the epic mistake of making alcohol legal; which gave them immense power and influence. However, upon the re-legalization of alcohol, organized crime had a good alternative to make up the difference, and then some, drugs. If we expect organized crime to walk away from drugs, there probably needs to be something else that has the potential for such massive profits for them to move on to. As of right now, I have no idea what could fill that gap.

 

[ATM]

None of us have the right to criminalize the mere vices of another, nor do we have the authority to delegate such an absurd function to any pack of thugs.

 

[Bapak2ja]

So what's your thoughts on - Should Drugs Be Legalized ? And I mean all drugs... Heroin, coke, pot and whatever else is out there ? The way I see it only people who do them are the ones it's going to effect the most, now I know some will say people will get killed if people drive while doing them... Well hell they do already so that don't change nothing... lol, I mean seriously just legalize it all and tax it and let these drug head go at it and if they OD so what they will anyway at some point.... Just seen a thing on TV about it is why I ask this question and it makes since to me... Its up to that person what they choose to do and they will do it anyway legal or not if that's there thing... If they legalize all drugs there won't be near as many people in prison and or tax dollars could be spent on murders and child molesters and the such.... Just my 2 cents

Yes, legalize it and end the war on drugs.

 

[printcraft]

.............

Finally, I think it is a pipe dream to believe that organized crime will simply cut their losses, from a multi-billion dollar industry, and simply walk away. Organized crime has always dealt with "legal" things, but simply did the run around concerning taxation and transport. But in those early days, they weren't as powerful. Then the govt made the epic mistake of making alcohol legal; which gave them immense power and influence. However, upon the re-legalization of alcohol, organized crime had a good alternative to make up the difference, and then some, drugs. If we expect organized crime to walk away from drugs, there probably needs to be something else that has the potential for such massive profits for them to move on to. As of right now, I have no idea what could fill that gap.

The street dealers that are making money from drugs, where MOST of the related violence is,
when that dries up what are they going to do for money?

 

[Kutnupe14]

The street dealers that are making money from drugs, where MOST of the related violence is,
when that dries up what are they going to do for money?

Join a church, go back to school, and get a legal job.... duh.

 

[steveh_131]

I have never known of a heroin addict that saves his ill-gotten gains for a "rainy day." They steal, buy as much dope can, and burn through it as fast as they can. When they get the shakes again, they repeat the process. So while the drug may be cheaper, it does nothing to stop the regular habit of their criminal activity.

There is a physical limit to how much drugs a human can ingest in a given amount of time. Cheaper drugs is going to mean less crime. This is a mathematical fact.

This is why we don't see people knocking over a liquor store for... liquor.

This also follow the assumption that drugs won't be regulated and taxed, which I think we all know isn't true. Now will the domestic manufacture and transportation offset the taxes making it a viable alternative to foreign made dope? I don't know.

Alcohol is taxed and regulated and is still cheaper than the [now non-existent] black market alternatives. While I would advise against even this much regulation, it still makes progress.

Finally, I think it is a pipe dream to believe that organized crime will simply cut their losses, from a multi-billion dollar industry, and simply walk away. Organized crime has always dealt with "legal" things, but simply did the run around concerning taxation and transport. But in those early days, they weren't as powerful. Then the govt made the epic mistake of making alcohol legal; which gave them immense power and influence. However, upon the re-legalization of alcohol, organized crime had a good alternative to make up the difference, and then some, drugs. If we expect organized crime to walk away from drugs, there probably needs to be something else that has the potential for such massive profits for them to move on to. As of right now, I have no idea what could fill that gap.

They're not 'cutting losses from a multi-billion dollar industry'. That industry disappears. They don't have a choice. Find something else to do. Will every criminal turn away from crime? Of course not. Even if none do, at least crime won't attract more people with promises of wealth and luxury that they could never achieve otherwise.

Crime is a decision of risk/benefit analysis. If there is no benefit, even the folks who don't mind risk aren't going to be drawn to it.