Shotguns found in cars at Fairfield Jr./Sr. High School

[Blue Tile Spook]

How many people do you suppose would be up in arms if the two kids would have started picking off students and teachers in the parking lot after school and it came out that school security and administrators knew the weapons were on the grounds?

The law suits would be knee deep by now. And again...it's silly that things have come this far...but realize why to an extent. Nothing anymore is an accident...it's a reason to litigate.

And that is the reason that we should embrace firearms and firearm safety in the schools instead of legislating them out of the school.

A hunter education program, a "match shooting squad" utilizing .22 rifles... It familiarizes all children with the positives and negatives of firearms, it teaches the children how to be safe around firearms, it takes the mystique out of firearms for kids, it would give them a constructive way of building self-esteem and on and on and on.

If I barred my son from kitchen (not just the area immediately around the stove) because there is a hot stove in there while I am cooking and I wanted to ensure a zero chance that he would ever be burned by it, knowing my son, he would make it his life's objective to get into the kitchen when my back is turned. By teaching him what a stove is, what the dangers of it are, what the benefits of it are... he could not care less about going in the kitchen.

I guess I am different that some parents because I figure that if a kid is going to shoot up a school, it doesn't matter if he gets the gun out of his trunk on school grounds or walks from home with the gun, he's going to do what he is going to do. Proximity means little when it comes to destructive acts.

 

[SavageEagle]

While I agree it's ridiculous that things have come this far that two kids are up to their eye teeth in a bind because they forgot to remove their hunting weapons from their vehicles...let me ask a question.


How many people do you suppose would be up in arms if the two kids would have started picking off students and teachers in the parking lot after school and it came out that school security and administrators knew the weapons were on the grounds?

The law suits would be knee deep by now. And again...it's silly that things have come this far...but realize why to an extent. Nothing anymore is an accident...it's a reason to litigate.

Had they just put the guns in the trunk...along with their smokes...nothing would have been said. It really is a shame. Hopefully this will be settled without screwing up their lives.

I guess I can understand, but then again, I can't. They have umpteen million security measures, things like that kids chain being considered a weapon, and on and on and on. Where does it stop? Do they ban pencils because they can be used to stab people and can cause lead poisioning? Do we ban belts because they too could be a weapon? Anyone in martial arts must have a permit to attend school because they are trained fighters?

Allow, like some states are starting to do, school teachers to have a concealed firearm.

If a kid is going to show up at school with a gun and wait for the final bell to ring and start shooting people as they flood the parking lot, what is really stopping them? The rent-a-cop sitting outside? The security camera covering the parking lot?

Maybe they should search everyone's cars as they come into the lot? Then they would just wait until after school and walk up to the lot and open fire.

You can't stop someone determined to shoot up their classmates except to shoot them back.

That's the true reality of the situation that no one seems to talk about.

 

[Prometheus]

I know who the traitor is too...

Fixed it for you.

"In law, treason is the crime that covers some of the more serious acts of disloyalty to one's sovereign or nation."
"A person who commits treason is known in law as a traitor. One who violates his allegiance and betrays his/her country; one guilty of treason
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traitor"

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." - Second Amendment to the Constitution of these United States

Indiana State Constitution: "
Article XI

Sect. 1. Every person who shall be chosen, or appointed to any office of trust or profit, under the authority of this state, shall, before entering on the duties of said office, take an oath or affirmation, before any person lawfully authorized to administer oath or affirmation, before any person lawfully authorized to administer oaths, to support the constitution of the united States, and the constitution of this state, and also an oath of office."

 

[Jubbie]

A hunter education program, a "match shooting squad" utilizing .22 rifles... It familiarizes all children with the positives and negatives of firearms, it teaches the children how to be safe around firearms, it takes the mystique out of firearms for kids, it would give them a constructive way of building self-esteem and on and on and on.

Down in Boonville (class of '98) we actually had Hunters Education during science class, as well as Boaters Education. I think it was 7th or 8th grade. We never touched the guns in class, but we learned the different types and the safety rules while handling them.

 

[AndersonIN]

Got one better this sweetheart only had shells!

Didn't have time to read entire thread hope this wasn't already covered. if so SORRY!!!

Junior Olympian Suspened For Shotgun Shells | This Is Just Stupid!

 

[RCB]

A lot of schools used to have hunters education classes. The US is truly losing its mind. Too much TV, with people spouting off everything that comes to their minds.

This is one reason why a private school voucher system would be interesting. Public education is a nightmare. I don't have children yet, but we are planning to. When it comes to schools we don't really know what to do, and i don't think home school is the right answer, but the lunacy in public schools is getting out of control.

Want to know why education is costing so much? ... they want kids to attend classes in museum like structures, filled with video cameras, school guards and people to over see all the non-sense. And for goodness sake, decentralize these schools. TOO many kids in one place. Not helping a thing.

I am glad I don't have to go through school these days.

Oh, and someone was mentioning about belts, but I know plenty of high schools where they can't even wear their jackets to class and have heard tale that there ARE some that don't allow belts.

 

[public servant]

I guess I can understand, but then again, I can't. They have umpteen million security measures, things like that kids chain being considered a weapon, and on and on and on. Where does it stop? Do they ban pencils because they can be used to stab people and can cause lead poisioning? Do we ban belts because they too could be a weapon? Anyone in martial arts must have a permit to attend school because they are trained fighters?

Allow, like some states are starting to do, school teachers to have a concealed firearm.

If a kid is going to show up at school with a gun and wait for the final bell to ring and start shooting people as they flood the parking lot, what is really stopping them? The rent-a-cop sitting outside? The security camera covering the parking lot?

Maybe they should search everyone's cars as they come into the lot? Then they would just wait until after school and walk up to the lot and open fire.

You can't stop someone determined to shoot up their classmates except to shoot them back.

That's the true reality of the situation that no one seems to talk about.

And SE...I understand all that...and I agree with it. But let me put it in slightly more personal terms for you. You have younger kids. Let's say they had a filed trip to the high school one day. And as they come out to catch the bus...a high school senior opens up on the group they are standing in. (God forbid this should ever happen to anyone....please don't take it so personally you get insulted....but personally enough so you see where I'm coming from).

Later...during the investigation of the shootings...you learn that school security had seen the weapons in the car...and then passed that information to the administration. Collectively they decided it was just a couple of kids going hunting after school...no big deal. What do you do? Do you pass it off as, "it could not have been avoided"? Or do you want someone's butt in a sling...served on a silver platter?

And be honest. And please don't be offended by my scenario...the hair on the back of my neck stands up just thinking about if it were my kids. You know I'd never wish anything bad on yours...or anyone's children.

Like I said...it's a damn shame these two kids are in a bind. But society has pushed us there. Not the school security...not the school administration. If I were in their shoes...I may well do the same thing. I don't want anyone moving into my house and spending what little I have in my pension and savings.

 

[Lucas156]

And SE...I understand all that...and I agree with it. But let me put it in slightly more personal terms for you. You have younger kids. Let's say they had a filed trip to the high school one day. And as they come out to catch the bus...a high school senior opens up on the group they are standing in. (God forbid this should ever happen to anyone....please don't take it so personally you get insulted....but personally enough so you see where I'm coming from).

Later...during the investigation of the shootings...you learn that school security had seen the weapons in the car...and then passed that information to the administration. Collectively they decided it was just a couple of kids going hunting after school...no big deal. What do you do? Do you pass it off as, "it could not have been avoided"? Or do you want someone's butt in a sling...served on a silver platter?

And be honest. And please don't be offended by my scenario...the hair on the back of my neck stands up just thinking about if it were my kids. You know I'd never wish anything bad on yours...or anyone's children.

Like I said...it's a damn shame these two kids are in a bind. But society has pushed us there. Not the school security...not the school administration. If I were in their shoes...I may well do the same thing. I don't want anyone moving into my house and spending what little I have in my pension and savings.

Nope actually makes me angry at the stupid laws that disarm the people whom could be defending themselves. This sounds a bit like the argument an antigunner would use to impose gun control to be completely honest nothing against you I just don't understand the logic of being angry at someone for not disarming the populace better.

 

[Doobie]

These two kids need a good lawyer and a jury who knows that they can nullify the law and find them not guilty.

 

[SavageEagle]

And SE...I understand all that...and I agree with it. But let me put it in slightly more personal terms for you. You have younger kids. Let's say they had a filed trip to the high school one day. And as they come out to catch the bus...a high school senior opens up on the group they are standing in. (God forbid this should ever happen to anyone....please don't take it so personally you get insulted....but personally enough so you see where I'm coming from).

Later...during the investigation of the shootings...you learn that school security had seen the weapons in the car...and then passed that information to the administration. Collectively they decided it was just a couple of kids going hunting after school...no big deal. What do you do? Do you pass it off as, "it could not have been avoided"? Or do you want someone's butt in a sling...served on a silver platter?

And be honest. And please don't be offended by my scenario...the hair on the back of my neck stands up just thinking about if it were my kids. You know I'd never wish anything bad on yours...or anyone's children.

Like I said...it's a damn shame these two kids are in a bind. But society has pushed us there. Not the school security...not the school administration. If I were in their shoes...I may well do the same thing. I don't want anyone moving into my house and spending what little I have in my pension and savings.

Well, this is a complicated scenario with a lot of factors to consider first.

First, though, let me say I'm not offended. I tried to rep you but I'm out. Again. It's a VERY plausible scenario as in this day and age, anything is possible. I've already thought about this exact same scenario myself along with many others. (Always Be Prepared - BS Motto)

Ok. First, there are rules for teachers about identifying problem students and reporting them to the upper echelon and the parents. If they would do a better job at this, I honestly believe there wouldn't be these problems. That also ties into hiring teachers that care about the kids more than the paycheck, but that's a WHOLE nuther thread...

If they would report these kids and keep them on a "watch list" at school, then they could use those stupid security camera's for a good reason. Regardless, if one of those kids is going to do it, they're going to do it no matter what you do to them. Short of searching them before they COME to school, get to school, during school, and after school. That will never fly.

What I'm getting at is if they were to identify the problem kids, get them help, chances of them doing something like this would greatly decrease. They can't stop em all, but it would help everyone by getting the problem kid help. Who would be considered a problem kid? I'm not that smart. I'll leave that to the experts. YOU ALL!

IF they had a watch list, they could randomly search that students stuff or mandate him ride the bus to school, not carry a backpack, what have you. Well, even then he could always hide a pistol on himself. He just wouldn't have access to a rifle or shotgun, something that could cause massive damage. Even if he has just a pistol, he can cause a lot of damage, but nothing like Columbine. Plus, if teachers were armed, Virgina Tech wouldn't have been as bad.

As per your scenario, I would sue the school district AND the government for not allowing teachers to be armed to defend their students. One armed guard that patrols a parking lot here and there cannot stop multipule armed intruders before they turn their school into the next Columbine. Knowing the school knew that PROBLEM kids had firearms would set me off, yes. But if these were honor roll students, or run of the mill students, someone who you'd never in a billion years thought would do this, no, I probably wouldn't blame the school. I know I would lash out at the parents. I'd probably sue the schools for not allowing teachers to be trained and able to carry, but I wouldn't sue the individual teachers, nor blame them.

I say that, because my convictions in believeing that teachers should be allowed to carry in school, provided they gain the necessary training for those kinds of situations, is so strong and I know many teachers feel the same way. You can't blame them for something beyond their control.

That 18y/o had EVERY right to carry that Shotty in his trunk. It was locked away, outside in the parking lot, and OBVIOUSLY he never had any intention of using it at school.

Personally, I also believe that an 18y/o student should be allowed to bring a gun to school PROVIDED that he/she has a LTCH AND LEAVES it in his/her vehicle. If teachers were allowed to carry and there were enough that did, it would reduce the need for students to carry in class.

I'm talking High School there, not college. I think college kids should be allowed to carry in class.

I hope that answers your question. If there's something I missed, and I know that's lengthy, just let me know and I'll address it.

God, please forbid this ever happening.



Actually now that I re-read it, I know I missed a lot of points, but I'd like to hear, err, see your reaction first...

 

[public servant]

God, please forbid this ever happening.

Amen.

 

[cosermann]

One of the many reasons my kids don't attend public school btw. Nothing like teaching the kids to tolerate having their rights violated from an early age; to be good little comrades.

 

[RelicHound]

Down in Boonville (class of '98) we actually had Hunters Education during science class, as well as Boaters Education. I think it was 7th or 8th grade. We never touched the guns in class, but we learned the different types and the safety rules while handling them.

yup..but in our class I recall the CO letting us come to the front of the class and handle the firearms....I recall one girl dropping the CO's brand new over and under shotgun...he put the guns back in there cases after that one

 

[rambone]

Instead of calling the newspapers bragging that they just stopped the next Columbine, they should have sent the kid home to drop off his gun. The what-ifs are pointless. School shootings are already illegal. They just made a felony out of an honest mistake.

The search was illegal in the first place. The 4th Amendment protects against warrantless searches. If you step onto my private property, that doesn't give me permission to violate all of your rights. So why do we allow these kind of rights violations on public property, that we all pay for with our tax dollars??

 

[DaveD]

Answer: Jury Nullification

 

[TripleL]

What was the resource officer expecting to find by searching the car.....more cigarettes? I hope the local folks rally around these kids.

 

[Jubbie]

Instead of calling the newspapers bragging that they just stopped the next Columbine, they should have sent the kid home to drop off his gun. The what-ifs are pointless. School shootings are already illegal. They just made a felony out of an honest mistake.

The search was illegal in the first place. The 4th Amendment protects against warrantless searches. If you step onto my private property, that doesn't give me permission to violate all of your rights. So why do we allow these kind of rights violations on public property, that we all pay for with our tax dollars??

This is like the workplace rules in place. I'm still sad the bill didn't pass earlier this year. Basically, Indiana law says no firearms on school property, can't really fight that, so that is cut and dry.

This court case seems to fit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_v._T._L._O.

 

[haldir]

Instead of calling the newspapers bragging that they just stopped the next Columbine, they should have sent the kid home to drop off his gun. The what-ifs are pointless. School shootings are already illegal. They just made a felony out of an honest mistake.

The search was illegal in the first place. The 4th Amendment protects against warrantless searches. If you step onto my private property, that doesn't give me permission to violate all of your rights. So why do we allow these kind of rights violations on public property, that we all pay for with our tax dollars??

Don't know about the second part, but I agree with the first. It seems like a guy could use some judgement. This isn't a city school. Call the parents in if you want and give everybody a stern talk. Then move on.

 

[Coach]

Jury nullification is these boys best shot I would think, and I hope they can afford to go that far. I hope they have spotless records other than this as that will increase their chances of coming through this.

If the boy was 18 whose car had the smokes in it and they were locked in the car and no being smoked I don't see this as a crime or even a violation of smoke free campus. He can legally have them and he was not smoking on campus. So the whole search seems to be BS to me. Kid should have said no to the the search and asked to call his parents and a lawyer.

 

[hookedonjeep]

My question is this....... if the 18yr old was the owner of the vehicle, and as such is legally able to purchase / consume cigarettes, where again is the probable cause? Since when did cigarettes get outlawed on school grounds - as a matter of state of federal law? I understand the schools have policies against the posession / use of tobacco products; but when did it become a violation of law? IMHO, the resource officer in question clearly violated that young man's 4th amendment rights, and as such; he should be fired, sued, tarred and feathered. He clearly overstepped his authority, and may have even had it out for this kid. I hope that all works out ok for those kids - that they are not branded for life over something so stupid.