Shotgun for HD misconception

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  • whocares

    Shooter
    Rating - 92.9%
    13   1   0
    Nov 9, 2010
    414
    18
    Clarksville, IN.
    OK Im gonna share this because I felt enlightened after I found myself being schooled on the subject. This is my response to the pistol or shotgun for HD thread that has gained so much attention.

    For my home defense go to gun I keep a 12 gauge shotgun. I now have a converted Saiga 12 but I choose to keep my coach length side by side most accessible from bed. Its easy to use under stress, period. My point here is why a shotgun is truly best for myself in terms of HD. I have three children, two dogs, and one wife who depend on me to protect the family should the unthinkable become reality. I stock heavy in Winchester Suoer X 3" magnum 00buck. Its not only 12 pellets but it has some serious velocity. Now the reason I thought the 3" magnum would be best is actually why it would be worst for me. I fell in love with that round after seeing how it penetrated so easily through material.

    If I have to defend my family I need to start by not accidently killing my children. My thinking of magnum load 00buck is flawed in a major way. Inside my home I guarantee that the pellets from that shell would penetrate drywall and studs through a couple rooms no problem at all. I cant ask my would be attacker to stand in the southwest corner because I know my children arent sleeping behind him there. I have to be able to engage my target in any direction until the family is assembeled in a safe zone. For in my home defense a shot size like a 6 or 7 is the only real option for safety. Dont think birdshot will just **** an attacker off. It is in my home where my shots will be within 10 yards or closer. A #6 shot at 8 yards through a typical 18.5" barrel is still so tight a pattern that it will deliver a slug sized hole to a body, but is much less likely to hold that pattern through walls. In my home my shotgun with proper in home defense shot size is much more practical than a pistol for this same reason in terms of overpenetration.

    When I was told how wrong I was to choose a magnum 00buck shot load for in my home and that I shoud use birdshot I understood the concept but thought no way am I birdshotting an attacker in my home. Im splittin em in half with 00buck. Then I had a demonstration on what a wad of #6 shot looks like within 10 yards and have never questioned it again.

    I hope people like myself with children in the home will find this as valuable information as I did.
     

    hoosierdoc

    Freed prisoner
    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0
    Apr 27, 2011
    25,987
    149
    Galt's Gulch
    I want to get a kel-tec dual-tube shotgun for this purpose. Plenty of rounds available but a semi-auto would be preferable so I don't know.

    there was a long thread about the type of shells to use for HD in a shotgun. interesting points.

    https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...181322-the_shotgun_meets_the_box_o_truth.html

    I don't think this is the thread I was thinking of but brings up some of those points. I worry about 00 and slugs given penetration concerns. If I miss the guy, I want the round to stop. If I hit him, the lighter loads will likely still put a hurt on him

    Edit: I reread the box o' truth and they added an addendum at the bottom I had missed before. sounds like the 00 doesn't penetrate as much as initial testing showed. I am more convinced of its safety now. OP: thanks for the interpretation.
     
    Last edited:

    Kart29

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Jun 10, 2011
    373
    18
    A #6 shot at 8 yards through a typical 18.5" barrel is still so tight a pattern that it will deliver a slug sized hole to a body, but is much less likely to hold that pattern through walls.


    Is there any evidence to support this? I don't see how bird shot has this magical property to penetrate through a human body at just as if it were a single projectile and yet be stopped nearly cold by a couple layers of sheet rock.

    You can't have it both ways. If bird shot at short range penetrates deep into an intruder, it's also going to penetrate deep through bedroom walls. On the other hand, if a couple layers of sheet rock will significantly stop the penetration of the pellets, then those pellets aren't likely to penetrate deep into a bad guy, either.

    Personally, I like #3 buckshot in a 20 ga. Either way, I don't think it matters that much. I'd guess that smacking an intruder with 3/4 of an ounce of lead is going to reverse his course in 99.99 times out of 100.
     

    whocares

    Shooter
    Rating - 92.9%
    13   1   0
    Nov 9, 2010
    414
    18
    Clarksville, IN.
    Good info

    I understand why there is skeptisism about the light load for HD. THE KEY FACTOR IN THIS CHOICE OF SHOT IS FOR INTERIOR THREATS. It is absolutely vital that I remain extremely aware of the concequences of over penetration in regards to my household. I use 3" magnum #6 for in home engagements. This round carries enough velocity that within 10 yards is going to put an intruder on his arse.

    I was shown with two sheets of standard plywood. At 20 feet it put one large crater in a sheet and stopped 10 feet behind it in the second board. Birdshot has different characteristics than 00buck in the sense that it slows down much more quickly after initial contact
     

    hammer24

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Birdshot has different characteristics than 00buck in the sense that it slows down much more quickly after initial contact


    This is shown here (from the above Box O' Truth link.)
    "I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

    It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all.
     

    whocares

    Shooter
    Rating - 92.9%
    13   1   0
    Nov 9, 2010
    414
    18
    Clarksville, IN.
    For the doubters

    Here you go. Just shot. Ive seen this in person so I didnt doubt anyway.

    This was only 2 3/4 magnum #6 at 20 feet which us well accross an interior room

    2012-04-28161720.jpg


    2012-04-28161741.jpg


    2012-04-28161816.jpg


    2012-04-28162406.jpg


    This is 1/2 thick heavy furniture grade fiber board much atronger than plywood sheet. Notice the crater. I dont have two boards but know that five feet behind this the **** wont come close to penetrating.
     

    whocares

    Shooter
    Rating - 92.9%
    13   1   0
    Nov 9, 2010
    414
    18
    Clarksville, IN.
    This is shown here (from the above Box O' Truth link.)
    "I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

    It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all.

    It was after reading that article that I grabbed the gun and set forth to proving my point
     

    thebishopp

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Nov 26, 2010
    1,286
    38
    Indiana
    It was after reading that article that I grabbed the gun and set forth to proving my point

    I think the point is that flesh and more importantly muscle act much differently then wood or in your example fiberboard. This is why a rather thin piece of kevlar, or other "bullet resistant material, (compared to thick boards) can stop certain bullets whereas those thicker boards can not.
     

    nimrodder

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Apr 9, 2012
    41
    6
    Indy
    I'm more concerned with under penetration (birdshot) of a bad guy than over penetration (buckshot) of my walls. If the BG is standing in front of the wall with a family member behind that wall you shouldn't shoot anyway. From Jeff Cooper:

    RULE IV:
    BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

    Know what it is, what is in line with it, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything you have not positively identified. Be aware of your surroundings, whether on the range or in a fight. Do not assume anything. Know what you are doing.

    The FBI has spent countless hours and millions of dollars studying the ballistics of pistol, rifle and shotgun rounds and they came up with a different conclusion.

    I suggest people get professional training if they keep a gun for self-defense.
     

    Mr Evilwrench

    Quantum Mechanic
    Emeritus
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Aug 18, 2011
    11,560
    63
    Carmel
    If some ne'er-do-well enters my bedroom, my son's kinda not really that far off axis, maybe 60°, but there's so much crap between us, walls, closets, stuff in the closets, I wouldn't sweat too much over HP pistol rounds or 00 buck after what I've seen on BOT, especially as far off axis as it would have to go to hit him. A direct hit might actually wake him up, him being a pretty heavy sleeper. All my 00 is in 2-3/4 anyway.
     
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