"Separation of Church and State..."

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  • IndyDave1776

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    I would like to propose some solutions:

    1. Public schools should not be teaching religion. Likewise, they should not be teaching and unproven and unprovable set of speculations we know as evolution, especially while presenting them as fact when they have not been proven as such. Private schools, religious or otherwise should be free to deal with the issue as they see fit.

    2. In general law, while most common law has a foundation in customs which spring from religion, it is still a matter of the rule of law and equality before it, not a matter of ecclesiastical standards. That said, it makes me wonder why our leftists who do the most screaming about any visible manifestation of religion in the public square virulently oppose such measures as the Oklahoma law prohibiting the use of Sharia (which is based on religion and state being inseparably intertwined) and foreign law in Oklahoma courts. Maybe they are OK with eliminating the separation so long as it is a religion that promotes totalitarianism.

    3. The Constitution is quite clear that free practice of religion (or the lack thereof) is the right of all citizens. This does not translate into a right to be shielded from the existence of religion or non-religion. The First Amendment also guarantees the right of free speech. It does not guarantee a right to be shielded from speech one does not particularly want to hear and does not guarantee a right not to be offended.

    If we can manage these thing, I believe that separation of church and state will largely become a non-issue.
     

    level.eleven

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    Wait a minute. The Theory of Evolution is unproven and unprovable? From where are you getting this information? If you just falsified or have access to such data that falsifies The Theory of Evolution, please share. Remember what your middle school mathematics teacher said, show your work.
     

    level.eleven

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    No. It means that scientists should be making room for the possibility, which most do not. Scientists often like to try to find truth only through science. I guess that's alright, considering it's their job, but they fail to take into account anything that can't be seen, heard, touched, smelled or tasted BY THEM. Those last two words are important, because they don't take into account that there is a very good possibility that dimensions exist that they aren't aware of. In fact, many people claim to have seen supernatural/paranormal events taken place, but scientists who openly claim to subscribe to the idea that these events are not figments of the imagination are thought of as crackpots who know nothing of science. Is science the study of what we can perceive with our five senses, or is it a quest to find objective truth?

    You have completely rewritten the definition of the natural sciences, the hard science - biology, chemistry, physics. There is a place for what you describe in the social sciences. I don't know where I would assign your ghosts.
     

    SemperFiUSMC

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    Wait a minute. The Theory of Evolution is unproven and unprovable? From where are you getting this information? If you just falsified or have access to such data that falsifies The Theory of Evolution, please share. Remember what your middle school mathematics teacher said, show your work.

    Don't need to show the work. It's all in the title. If it was proven it would be the Law of Evolution. The fact it is the Theory of Evolution by definition means it is unproven.
     

    lucky4034

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    Wait a minute. The Theory of Evolution is unproven and unprovable? From where are you getting this information? If you just falsified or have access to such data that falsifies The Theory of Evolution, please share. Remember what your middle school mathematics teacher said, show your work.

    +1

    LMAO

    The problem with "the faithful" is that they seem to think that Evolution (see.. I even capitalized the word :P ) is somehow a blatant strike at their beliefs.

    I had a guy tell me last week that there had to be a god because "it is just common sense. How else would a planet revolve around a sun and a moon around a planet."

    Nevermind the existence of gravity....

    Basically... as long as he couldn't make sense of something on his own, then he would simply write it off as "It doesn't make sense [to me], therefore it has to be God"

    Evolution itself is a FACT...We know that things evolve because we have witnessed them. The Theory of Evolution is due to the fact that we can't go back in time and show that EVERYTHING we see now has evolved.
     

    SemperFiUSMC

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    +1

    LMAO

    The problem with "the faithful" is that they seem to think that Evolution (see.. I even capitalized the word :P ) is somehow a blatant strike at their beliefs.

    I had a guy tell me last week that there had to be a god because "it is just common sense. How else would a planet revolve around a sun and a moon around a planet."

    Nevermind the existence of gravity....

    Basically... as long as he couldn't make sense of something on his own, then he would simply write it off as "It doesn't make sense [to me], therefore it has to be God"

    Evolution itself is a FACT...We know that things evolve because we have witnessed them. The Theory of Evolution is due to the fact that we can't go back in time and show that EVERYTHING we see now has evolved.

    If evolution was a fact it would be a law. Can you name a single species that has evolved under observed conditions? Just one?
     

    level.eleven

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    Not trolling. Not taking a position. Just pointing out the facts. Fact is that if it were proven it would be a Law, not a Theory.

    I think you may be trying to apply the common usage of the terms law and theory to the field of science. A law, as is used in day to day language, is a rule written on paper that you must follow or you will be penalized. Funny enough, this type of law can be completely disregarded or arbitrarily changed. A law in science is a a description of the natural world, almost exclusively mathematical. F=MA. Newton's Second Law of Motion (note, not Newtonism). What that law provides, is a known outcome for a scenario in the natural world. What is doesn't describe, is why. Another example would be Newton's Law of Gravity. Two objects attract one another. What answers the question as to why, is the Theory of Relativity. Enter the theory.

    Again, theory takes on a different meaning in science than in day to day life. For this definition, I will rely on the Academy of Sciences. A scientific theory is a “well- substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.” Theories are supported by evidence, and you can test them, and, most importantly, you can use them to make predictions.

    Finally, the process is not a linear progression. A theory cannot become a law. Formulating theories is the end goal of science.
     

    Titanium_Frost

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    Evolution itself is a FACT...We know that things evolve because we have witnessed them. The Theory of Evolution is due to the fact that we can't go back in time and show that EVERYTHING we see now has evolved.

    Fail 5th grade Science much?

    The Theory of Evolution is no more proveable than Creationism or that friggin space aliens grew us in their ship and implanted us here on Earth to test their own theories.
     

    SemperFiUSMC

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    I think you may be trying to apply the common usage of the terms law and theory to the field of science. A law, as is used in day to day language, is a rule written on paper that you must follow or you will be penalized. Funny enough, this type of law can be completely disregarded or arbitrarily changed. A law in science is a a description of the natural world, almost exclusively mathematical. F=MA. Newton's Second Law of Motion (note, not Newtonism). What that law provides, is a known outcome for a scenario in the natural world. What is doesn't describe, is why. Another example would be Newton's Law of Gravity. Two objects attract one another. What answers the question as to why, is the Theory of Relativity. Enter the theory.

    Again, theory takes on a different meaning in science than in day to day life. For this definition, I will rely on the Academy of Sciences. A scientific theory is a “well- substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.” Theories are supported by evidence, and you can test them, and, most importantly, you can use them to make predictions.

    Finally, the process is not a linear progression. A theory cannot become a law. Formulating theories is the end goal of science.

    Theory

    a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.

    Scientific Law

    a phenomenon of nature that has been proven to invariably occur whenever certain conditions exist or are met; also, a formal statement about such a phenomenon.


    These are the definitions I am using. They came straight from Dictionary.com if you would like to verify them.


    I would say that they pretty much back up my position. :dunno:
     

    level.eleven

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    Theory

    a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.

    Scientific Law

    a phenomenon of nature that has been proven to invariably occur whenever certain conditions exist or are met; also, a formal statement about such a phenomenon.


    These are the definitions I am using. They came straight from Dictionary.com if you would like to verify them.


    I would say that they pretty much back up my position. :dunno:

    Now you are being dishonest. Why did you neglect the first entry for theory?

    a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity. Synonyms: principle, law, doctrine.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory
     

    Titanium_Frost

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    Level.eleven is correct in that no matter HOW proven something like Evolution or Creation is it will not be considered a LAW like gravity because it is not repeatable. In Evolution terms a fish that turned into a reptile one day and the next the same type of fish could turn into an amphibian.

    In Creation- well you just don't see the universe getting created more than once do you?
     

    SemperFiUSMC

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    Now you are being dishonest. Why did you neglect the first entry for theory?

    a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity. Synonyms: principle, law, doctrine.

    Theory | Define Theory at Dictionary.com

    Not dishonest. Because the Theory of Evolution does not fit into the first definition.

    What are the tested propositions? What are the principles of explanation and prediction? Einstein's Theory of Relativity can be tested mathematically. Not so with the Theory of Evolution.

    You'll have to try harder.
     

    lucky4034

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    Fail 5th grade Science much?

    The Theory of Evolution is no more proveable than Creationism or that friggin space aliens grew us in their ship and implanted us here on Earth to test their own theories.
    Does being a biology major help? :dunno:


    Do you read much?

    I said EVOLUTION is a FACT... not he theory of evolution.

    First you folks should figure out the difference between the two then come back.
     

    level.eleven

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    Not dishonest. Because the Theory of Evolution does not fit into the first definition.

    What are the tested propositions? What are the principles of explanation and prediction? Einstein's Theory of Relativity can be tested mathematically. Not so with the Theory of Evolution.

    You'll have to try harder.

    Are you still operating under the impression that theory can become law, your initial premise?
     

    lucky4034

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    Can you name a single species that has evolved under observed conditions? Just one?

    Absolutely... there have been hundreds of them? This is what I mean by not understanding the concept of evolution and not being able to distinguish the difference between the term "evolution" from the term "theory of evolution" and realizing that in OUR LIFETIMES we have observed evolution many many many times.... but obviously can't follow evolution back in time to the origin of life.

    Theory of Evolution: is the idea that living things in our world have come into being through unguided naturalistic processes starting from a primeval mass of subatomic particles and radiation, over approximately 20 billion years.

    Evolution: is any change across successive generations in the heritable characteristics of biological populations.

    Big difference between the two terms....

    Evolution is a fact of life... just like I said. You can make the argument that God exists and all life didn't diversify from the same organism, because as of right now, there is no way to prove or disprove that. However, what you can not argue is that evolution takes place.
     
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