Self defense with a firearm

[88GT]

The comment in the "are you going to jail?" thread about not understanding holding the perps with the firearm trained on them got me wondering.

I personally believe that a firearm is not limited in its effectiveness as an offensive protection tool. I believe that the knowledge of what it can do and the self-preservation of most humans will often garner the desired results without having to fire it. But I have never seen any stats on the breakdown of defensive firearms uses between those that involved a discharge and those that simply involved a show of force via display.

So here's my unscientific effort to see if my theory has any validity.

Answers are anonymous in case OPSEC is a concern. And if you qualify under both answers, use the latest incident.

Edit: Oh, yeah, LEOs, you can only use personal encounters, not those experienced in the line of duty. Can't have you skewing the answers for the "blowed 'em away" side.

 

[Plinker]

I'm willing to bet $50 that showing a firearm is all that is needed 90% of the time in SD situations. I'm interested to hear some folk's actual experiences.

 

[the1kidd03]

I know it's a felony to aim a weapon at a person....and depending on if it's loaded will change the level of the felony....however, what criminal is going to run to the police and tell them you aimed a gun at him when he tried to rob you.....that being said, I live by the firm grounding that if: they present a clear danger to my life, I "shoot to stop the threat" just as local LEO are taught...basically, there is lead entering their body until they drop...and I live by the fact that "a dead man can't testify"....2 in the chest 1 in the head......IMO the the course you're referring to is more of a gimmick for making a living.....I've NEVER heard of a case where protecting one's own life landed them in jail to substantiate paying to take such a class....

 

[DownByTheTracks]

I was heading to work one day and a large pickup truck was showing a case of road rage. He ended up blocking the road I was on, giving me now means of escape except backwards. I pulled a Glock 22 from under the seat, held it up in the window, chambered a round and instantly the driver burned rubber and took a gravel road to get away.

That's the only time I've pulled a gun when I thought I might need it, and that guy was smart enough to see what I was doing in the rear view mirror.

 

[Sylvain]

I agree with you, you dont have to fire your gun to use it to defend your life.
If someone knocks on your door in the middle of the night and hears the racking of a shotgun, then that person will probably not try to kick your door in.
Same thing if you welcome your intruder with a firearm pointed directly at him/her.

It's not because you had to grab your gun that you will always have to fire it in order to defend your life or property.

 

[lrahm]

To have a LTCH or to be a LEO takes on a new perspective in life. To use it in protection of yourself or others means that you understand the laws pertaining to deadly force and being able to communicate the incidenet effective and truthfully to the police and your peers. It is not something to take as a joke or to have as what some of your opponents would state as an extension of your manhood.

Most all of the time, my own family don't know I am armed. It is not an us vs. them scenario, it is a case of defending myself against a person who has every intent of seriously hurting me. The times I have pulled my weapon, I knew my life was or could be in danger. When I say could be in danger, I mean there was a strong chance the person or situation I was in or going to be in was serious enough to defend myself.

To come up with a story that justifies the actions you took, well you have to live with that. Know the laws and be able to explain why you feared for your own safety.

Now the aftermath. Ther have been studies, stories and even physical observation of the results of what has happened to people after they have discharged their weapon. Many people can't handle the pressure or feel unsure of what they did. That's normal.

What ever choice you made at the top of the page you will have to live with or second guess for some time. But, be preparred because the person you are standing across from is also preparred and he might not hesitate. Stay safe.

 

[Sylvain]

What if you shot yourself in the foot by accident and that scared your attacker away?
That's not on the poll.
Or more seriously if you fire a "warning shot" to show that you mean business and that your gun is not a toy.
It's not just shooting at the threat vs not shooting at all.
I think a "warning shot" is still a good display of force, and if you can defend your life by just shooting up in the air without having to kill someone then it's a good thing for everybody.
Of course you will have to be in a true self defense situation to make legal the use of a "warning shot" since it's illegal to discharge a firearm in most cases unless it's a self defense situation.

 

[88GT]

What if you shot yourself in the foot by accident and that scared your attacker away?
That's not on the poll.
Or more seriously if you fire a "warning shot" to show that you mean business and that your gun is not a toy.
It's not just shooting at the threat vs not shooting at all.
I think a "warning shot" is still a good display of force, and if you can defend your life by just shooting up in the air without having to kill someone then it's a good thing for everybody.
Of course you will have to be in a true self defense situation to make legal the use of a "warning shot" since it's illegal to discharge a firearm in most cases unless it's a self defense situation.

Unless the threat is a dog.

But you bring up a good point. For the sake of the poll, unless you were specifically firing at the threat, consider a warning shot a display. The point is to question the idea of having to shoot AT the threat to justify use of the firearm, so from that viewpoint, a warning shot is still just another method of displaying the ability and willingness to force.

 

[sgreen3]

Its a real tough scenario to put any of our selves in, unless we have acually done it. But like a Downbythetracks mentioned, If it ever came about I would have no problem showing my weapon to someone(not point it at them) just to let them know to leave me or family alone, and let them decide how I proced

 

[jeremy]

It is an immeasurable Responsibility when one picks up a tool that can end ones existence...

 

[SSGSAD]

I have just patted my side, where my gun, was concealed, and said, I wouldn't if I were you ..... and got his attention, REAL FAST.....
he asked what was that, and I said, you don't wanna find out, and he left .....

 

[Sylvain]

If you are looking for stories, here is one that happend to a friend.
He was walking alone in the evening, was about to reach his car, when he was approched by two individuals (one of them with hands in his pockets, maybe hand on a knife).
One of the individuals went around my friend's car while the other went straight to my friend.
My friend noticed something was wrong right away, people who just want to ask you for directions dont corner you like that.
The first guy asked my friend "Do you have any money?" (the way it was asked didnt really sound like a question but more like an order)
My friend opened is jacket (Bad guy thought he was looking for a wallet), placed his hand on the grip of his G26 still in his holster and said in a firm and polite way "Sorry I cant help you".
The guy looked down at his Glock, then back up at my friend's face, then at his friend in the other side of my friend's car.
And finally said "Well sorry ... *looks down at the gun again* have a nice day Sir" while walking away.

No shot was fired, nobody got hurt or killed.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Does OCing count as displaying?

 

[88GT]

Does OCing count as displaying?

Not for the purposes of the poll as it's not in direct response to a threat.

 

[mcshaker]

I live by the school that if you see my gun someone is probably getting shot. If your mindset isn't "I'm going to pull the trigger" the gun shouldn't even come out.

 

[INyooper]

Or more seriously if you fire a "warning shot" to show that you mean business and that your gun is not a toy.

I'm reading this thread as someone who has neither had to display deadly force to a threat, nor fire a weapon to protect either my life or the life of family & friends. In that respect, I'm very much still learning from those who have more experience than I do. In that context, I consider myself a student who learns a great deal from the experiences of others and what they share. I've found this forum, among a few others, to be an invaluable resource to that end.

In reading various forums, articles, columns, etc. concerning carry laws and defensive firearm issues and practices, I can't recall any that recommend using a "warning shot" as a viable defensive tactic. Rather, it's most often advised against, especially in the context of the "four rules" and in light of being legally responsible for every bullet that one fires, whether it's in a defensive situation or not.

It's entirely possible that there are advantages to using a warning shot and fail-safe ways to ensure that no one is inadvertently injured. If there are, I'm not aware of them and am somewhat skeptical, but am always willing to learn if you, or anyone, is/are willing to share. I'd appreciate your insight.

 

[hoosierdoc]

I also am new around here and have not been in a situation to use a gun for protection. Another interesting poll would be: " have you been in a situation where you feared seriously bodily injury or death and wished you had a gun?" I've been in a few of those over the years. I still don't carry, but am working towards it.

The warning shot was suggested to be in the air, was that just a phrase or is there a reason the ground wasn't chosen? Obviously ricochet is a problem with ground shots (see video on YouTube of .50 cal hitting earmuffs?) but on dirt/grass, ground seems like the place to aim to me.

 

[Stschil]

Couldnt vote in the poll as my use was in a LE situation. That said, all the levels of force were evaluated and either used or dismissed because the situation had elevated beyond their effectiveness. Law Enforcement and civilians have to follow a seperate set of rules when deadly force is involved. So it does very little good to try to compare the two.
Indiana has ruled that a citizen has no duty to retreat, meaning that if a threat of death or serious harm exists, the shooting of an attacker is a valid reason/defense. If my pistol is removed from it's holster in such a situation, I am prepared to fire. I must always keep that in mind. Its not bravado or a macho attitude, I just know that it's my responsibility.
If I am not knowledgable of what constitutes lawful use, and prepared to deal with the aftermath, I should not be carrying. I am not one to consider warnings as an effective means of protection and I will not willingly frequent locations known for criminal activity merely because I have a firearm with me either. Situation awareness is more protection IMO. I do my best not to present myself as a viable target to a thug.

 

[shibumiseeker]

I once ended a threat by display of a firearm. I was prepared to use it if necessary, but fortunately the threat ended there.

In hindsight, my actions in the confrontation were not completely defensible from the start, but I'd say about 75% so.

I was 22 at the time and had been carrying for a year. I learned a lot from that encounter and it was the stimulus for me to get better training in when it is appropriate and when not. I was no newbie to self defense, I'd been studying martial arts off and on since I was 6, but it was a new aspect to it for me.

Since then I've had a few instances where my hand was discreetly on my gun, but the person(s) creating the threat were not aware of it and I was able to de-escalate the situation without issue. More importantly, my situational awareness has dramatically improved to the point where I know better how to avoid those situations from the start.

I am NOT one of those who believe that if the gun comes out I'm immediately shooting until the threat stops. It really depends on the situation. Some times the threat happens so quickly that drawing and shooting immediately is appropriate and necessary. Sometimes having the gun out and giving the threat an opportunity to stop without shots fired is appropriate. Regardless though, I AM firmly of the camp of "if the gun comes out you'd better be prepared to use it."

 

[SHEEPdOHdoubleG]

If you are looking for stories, here is one that happend to a friend.
He was walking alone in the evening, was about to reach his car, when he was approched by two individuals (one of them with hands in his pockets, maybe hand on a knife).
One of the individuals went around my friend's car while the other went straight to my friend.
My friend noticed something was wrong right away, people who just want to ask you for directions dont corner you like that.
The first guy asked my friend "Do you have any money?" (the way it was asked didnt really sound like a question but more like an order)
My friend opened is jacket (Bad guy thought he was looking for a wallet), placed his hand on the grip of his G26 still in his holster and said in a firm and polite way "Sorry I cant help you".
The guy looked down at his Glock, then back up at my friend's face, then at his friend in the other side of my friend's car.
And finally said "Well sorry ... *looks down at the gun again* have a nice day Sir" while walking away.

No shot was fired, nobody got hurt or killed.

By Friend, do you by chance mean NutnFancy? When reading this, I was like, "I find it hard to believe that we were told the same story by the same person"... turns out we probably were! He tells the story in detail in this video. Start Video @ 13:50

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei8OK4WdoW0&feature=relmfu"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei8OK4WdoW0&feature=relmfu[/ame]