School me on Berettas

[turnandshoot4]

I have been looking at these little gems and I don't know what is good or bad. Since one can acquire these for $350 or so sometimes they have popped on my radar. So I've got a few questions.

Thoughts on the 92?
Thoughts on the 90-two?
Thoughts on the 96? And what does the D mean on these 96's sometimes?
Italian vs American?
Various different models? Brigadier, elite, vortec, etc. etc.
Accuracy?
Trigger?


I tried the search function to no avail. Plus this might make google bring more people to !

 

[LPMan59]

rather than cut and paste a bunch of stuff:
Beretta 92 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

good guns. i would go with the 92fs/m9.

 

[shooter521]

Member indykid is a certified Beretta nut and can tell you WAY more than you really want to know about 'em; might drop him a PM if he doesn't find his way here on his own.

 

[mkelsey]

good guns. i would go with the 92fs/m9.

My first handgun purchase, and an AWESOME gun IMHO, as reliable as they come and it has without fail eaten any and all 9mm ammo I have been able to find including but certainly not limited to the "hot" +p+ loads without a single FTF, FTE. I love mine.

 

[dice dealer]

The only company on the planet owned by one and only one family for 15 generations , or over 500 years ...

how can anyone argue with that

 

[shooter521]

Since one can acquire these for $350 or so sometimes

The only ones you'll be able to find for that are well-worn police trade-ins, and they will typically be older models (you're not going to find a $350 Vertec or 90-Two, for example).

And what does the D mean on these 96's sometimes?

The "D" guns are DAO (no safety/decock lever at all). The "G" guns are decock-only (decock lever is present, but it has no manual safety function).

Italian vs American?

Beretta swears there's no quality or accuracy difference; many Beretta aficionados swear otherwise. I've never seen any hard data supporting either position. The Italian-made guns do bring a slight premium on the secondhand market.

Various different models? Brigadier, elite, vortec, etc. etc.

The Brigadiers have a beefier slide. The Elites are basically "factory custom" guns. The Vertec (note spelling) has a straighter grip to mimic the angle of the 1911. I would beware of buying any configuration for which parts and mags are not readily available (i.e. the single-stack "M" or compact "L" models).

 

[Hoosier8]

The 92fs is a pretty good sized gun and some find the grip to large. Mine is an Italian and it is just plain purdy. My daughter loves shooting it. Bradis Guns had some of the refurbished Police models for a pretty decent price (under $400 if I remember correctly) and some of them seem to be in pretty good shape; though, some had painted numbers on the grips.

 

[stony]

Watch out they are very addictive, If there is something specific that you want to know feel free to drop me a PM, or for the abosolute best knowledge visit the Berettaforum.net. A couple to tease you. The Elite II is from Ernest Langdon, it is the smoothest pistol I have ever shot.

 

[rvb]

92's (9mm) are great, great guns. Most of the problems you will hear of are early design/manufacturing issues that are no longer issues. I have a police-trade in model that I have put approx 120-thousand rounds through.

96's (.40) are decent guns. But I wouldn't want one for high round-count use. For a defensive gun, sure. But they have a considerably higher frame failure rate than the 92s.

Elite models are great for competition use... key features include bevelled mag well and "G" conguration vs "FS" (decocker only vs decocker/safety), and dovetailed front site.

"D" configuration is double-action only. There are also D/FS out there that include a safety.

Brigadier slides (found on Brigadier models and Elites) are benefitial in that they have a dove-tailed front sight. Regular 92s have a milled-in FS. (Vertec's also have a dovetailed FS). The extra weight, well, some like it, I don't.

The 90-two (dumbest name in gun history) is a novel idea, but with high-round-count use problems with the modular grip have been reported. Possibly better frame life in .40. Most parts interchange w/ the regular 92 series.

For new production, all you can get is a 92FS. Beretta has quit production of all variants.

Triggers can be made nice with a little effort and super nice with a lot of effort (my match gun could rival many DA revolvers, even w/ all internal safeties in place).

Rumors to ignore:

Locking blocks... early model locking blocks had some breakage problems. Even they are easily replaced. I busted one on my police trade-in (circa '92 IIRC). The new block has 10s of thousands of rounds on it. Later designs are damn near indescructible.

Accuracy... the lack of "lock up" on the front mystifies many "experts" who don't understand the system. It's no bullseye gun, but I've shot 6" groups at 50 yds many times w/ my Elite II.

US vs IT... no difference, just novelty.

-rvb

 

[shooter521]

96's (.40) have a considerably higher frame failure rate than the 92s.

The 90-two (dumbest name in gun history) is a novel idea, but with high-round-count use problems with the modular grip have been reported. Possibly better frame life in .40.

Why would the 96 have a higher frame failure rate than the 92s, but the 90-Two have better frame life in .40 than 9mm?

And regarding the name, I dunno about that; I think "Five-seveN" and "P3AT" are right up there, too.

For new production, all you can get is a 92FS. Beretta has quit production of all variants.

Source? They're still showing the 96, 90-Two and M9A1 on their website. If true, it's a good idea, IMO. The 92FS is and continues to be their bread and butter; all the other stuff was a mildly interesting diversion at best.

The new block has 10s of thousands of rounds on it. Later designs are damn near indescructible.

What's the locking block's estimated service life these days? Used to be ~20K rounds, IIRC. Your average shooter/gun owner will never reach that, of course; just curious if they had upped it with the new design.

 

[BE Mike]

I have a Beretta 96D. It is a great pistol and you can find them at very good prices. The U.S. Border Patrol used them for years. The expected round count is over 30,000 for these pistols. I have a feeling if I were to shoot mine that much and the frame failed, I'd be able to get a new frame from Beretta. Heck for the price of the complete gun, I'd just buy another one instead!

I have a Beretta 92FS Brigadeer. It has been accurized for bullseye shooting. Besides my .22 pistol, it is the most accurate pistol I own and very reliable.

I think that if you can find a 92 or 96 for $400 or less, you will be happy with it. For self-defense, I prefer the double action only gun. It takes a lot of practice to shoot well, but I prefer it over the traditional double action. If you are used to shooting a revolver double-action, then the learning curve to the double-action Beretta is nearly non-existent.

 

[turnandshoot4]

The only company on the planet owned by one and only one family for 15 generations , or over 500 years ...

how can anyone argue with that

That is an intresting bit of info. And yes it's

The only ones you'll be able to find for that are well-worn police trade-ins, and they will typically be older models (you're not going to find a $350 Vertec or 90-Two, for example).
Yea, but when they are gone those police trade ins will be $500 as well (I think).



The "D" guns are DAO (no safety/decock lever at all). The "G" guns are decock-only (decock lever is present, but it has no manual safety function).



Beretta swears there's no quality or accuracy difference; many Beretta aficionados swear otherwise. I've never seen any hard data supporting either position. The Italian-made guns do bring a slight premium on the secondhand market.
How do you tell the difference?



The Brigadiers have a beefier slide. The Elites are basically "factory custom" guns. The Vertec (note spelling) has a straighter grip to mimic the angle of the 1911. I would beware of buying any configuration for which parts and mags are not readily available (i.e. the single-stack "M" or compact "L" models).

The 92fs is a pretty good sized gun and some find the grip to large. Mine is an Italian and it is just plain purdy. My daughter loves shooting it. Bradis Guns had some of the refurbished Police models for a pretty decent price (under $400 if I remember correctly) and some of them seem to be in pretty good shape; though, some had painted numbers on the grips.

Perdy

Watch out they are very addictive, If there is something specific that you want to know feel free to drop me a PM, or for the abosolute best knowledge visit the Berettaforum.net. A couple to tease you. The Elite II is from Ernest Langdon, it is the smoothest pistol I have ever shot.

I try to stay away from the forums dedicated to the certain manufacturer. I got burned on a CZ that way. Not saying that beretta is that way, I just feel that those forums are less objective than just a gun forum. Many more people with ONE gun and that is the best gun in the world.

A while back Sig built a 220 for Ernest Langdon. I heard it was amazing. Those are getting hard to find now.

92's (9mm) are great, great guns. Most of the problems you will hear of are early design/manufacturing issues that are no longer issues. I have a police-trade in model that I have put approx 120-thousand rounds through.
I'd like your ammo budget!

96's (.40) are decent guns. But I wouldn't want one for high round-count use. For a defensive gun, sure. But they have a considerably higher frame failure rate than the 92s.

Elite models are great for competition use... key features include bevelled mag well and "G" conguration vs "FS" (decocker only vs decocker/safety), and dovetailed front site.
These I am getting more intrested in. The more rare, the more intrested I am.

"D" configuration is double-action only. There are also D/FS out there that include a safety.

Brigadier slides (found on Brigadier models and Elites) are benefitial in that they have a dove-tailed front sight. Regular 92s have a milled-in FS. (Vertec's also have a dovetailed FS). The extra weight, well, some like it, I don't.

The 90-two (dumbest name in gun history) is a novel idea, but with high-round-count use problems with the modular grip have been reported. Possibly better frame life in .40. Most parts interchange w/ the regular 92 series.

For new production, all you can get is a 92FS. Beretta has quit production of all variants.
I am still trying to collect the stopped production run Sig's. Now I have to get these!?

Triggers can be made nice with a little effort and super nice with a lot of effort (my match gun could rival many DA revolvers, even w/ all internal safeties in place).
Anyone know how to do this? Or do we send it off to a gunsmith?

Rumors to ignore:

Locking blocks... early model locking blocks had some breakage problems. Even they are easily replaced. I busted one on my police trade-in (circa '92 IIRC). The new block has 10s of thousands of rounds on it. Later designs are damn near indescructible.

Accuracy... the lack of "lock up" on the front mystifies many "experts" who don't understand the system. It's no bullseye gun, but I've shot 6" groups at 50 yds many times w/ my Elite II.

US vs IT... no difference, just novelty.

-rvb

 

[rvb]

And regarding the name, I dunno about that; I think "Five-seveN" and "P3AT" are right up there, too.

Try walking into a gun store and saying "can I see a 90-two." And when they hand you a 92FS, saying, "no, a 90-two". Real Laurel and Hardy Stuff. Rediculous.

Why would the 96 have a higher frame failure rate than the 92s, but the 90-Two have better frame life in .40 than 9mm?

Sorry I wasn't clear. 90-two has built-in replaceable buffer. aluminum IIRC. Should last longer in .40 compared to a 96. but not necessarily longer than a 9mm in either.

Source? They're still showing the 96, 90-Two and M9A1 on their website. If true, it's a good idea, IMO.

Forgot about the 90-two. 92FS/96FS/M9 are the same imo, just roll marks and caliber. No more Elites, Brigadiers, Ds, Gs, Centurions, Ms, steels, vertecs, etc etc. Market share shows it's hurting them, but they are focused on mil contracts.

What's the locking block's estimated service life these days? Used to be ~20K rounds, IIRC. Your average shooter/gun owner will never reach that, of course; just curious if they had upped it with the new design.

I Think that's still what they say. Don't really follow mil contracts. But that's 124gr NATO sevice life, too. Early gen blocks you were lucky to get that w/ standard commercial stuff.

-rvb

 

[holejack1]

I had a 84F .380 in the early '90s and sent it in twice because the notch in slide for the slide stop wallowed out and wouldn't hold the slide open. I thought they should've replaced the slide the first time, but they just milled the notch back a little more. Of course this lasted all of 2 or three magazines before it rounded the edge of the notch off again. They did the same repair the second time I sent it in, and it didn't last any longer. Obviously the slide material was too soft. I sent Beretta USA a nastygram and traded the gun, and I've steered clear of Berettas ever since, even though I love the looks and handling of em.

 

[turnandshoot4]

I am probibly leaning towards the 9mm's. I'm not a .380 fan at all.

Thanks for the info though!!

 

[shooter521]

Try walking into a gun store and saying "can I see a 90-two." And when they hand you a 92FS, saying, "no, a 90-two". Real Laurel and Hardy Stuff. Rediculous.

Just wait until the Glock Model 40 comes out, in a caliber other than .40S&W... "I'd like to see a Glock 40". "Would that be a Glock in .40S&W? If so, what model? Or would that be a Glock Model 40, in [XYZ caliber]?" As if customers weren't clueless enough already...

No more Elites, Brigadiers, Ds, Gs, Centurions, Ms, steels, vertecs, etc etc.

Copy. I was aware of that. I don't think discontinuing the various 92/96 variants has hurt them all that much; I've heard from a couple insiders on other boards that they didn't sell that many Elites, Vertecs and such, anyway. What they really need to do is fire the guy who designed the "ergonomics" for the 9000S, PX4/CX4 and the Neos...

Market share shows it's hurting them, but they are focused on mil contracts.

I've heard that, too. You can't even order an M9A1 right now, since they're all going to the .mil. A multi-year contract for some ginormous amount of guns, IIRC.

 

[rvb]

A while back Sig built a 220 for Ernest Langdon. I heard it was amazing.

I'm pretty sure Ernie did all that work himself. I spent a couple days w/ him back when he was training for IPDA Nats w/ that gun (I was just learning to shoot then). That gun was far, far from factory. Purdy, too.

Anyone know how to do this? Or do we send it off to a gunsmith?

Dave Olhasso is the only guy I know of currently doing stuff like parts and smithing for the practical shooting crowd. David Sams is still active with the bullseye crowd. I do all my own work.

How do you tell the difference?

Italian say made in Itally, imported by Beretta USA. US-made say made in US. Some say you can tell a differnce in finish. I'm not anal enough I could ever tell.

I had a 84F .380

IMO, the 92-series are great pistols (and pistols based on that platform such as their target 22s). Their shotguns rocks. I don't really have an opinion on the new PX4s. Everything else is borderline junk.

-rvb

 

[stony]

All you have to do is to look at the SN# on the frame if it starts with BER###### then it is a BUSA gun. The only reason I bring up the Beretta forum is if you need specific knowledge of a spicific model, you can find it there. All you have to do is shoot one then it's all over.

 

[indykid]

Couldn't get on the site early enough to answer due to the fact I still work for a living.

Anyway thanks to Shooter521 for answering the questions. About the only thing I really have to add, is after talking to people at the Beretta USA plant, it seems that you can find versions of versions of versions. After a production run, if they have parts left over, they will use them for a "special production" run.

I have seen Italian slides on Italian frames that were assembled in the US with US serial numbers. This all illustrates the greatness of the 92 design, that you can mix and match parts to build the pistol knowing that it will function flawlessly for a long time.

Per the factory, there is no difference between the Italian made and US made ones, but some people can see a slight finish difference. Personally I think that is due to EPA restrictions of the chemicals used to finish the pistol rather than a quality thing. Italy doesn't have an EPA to deal with.

The 90 dash two is their full size entry into the plastic world, but with the 92FS such a bullet proof pistol in itself, the 90 dash two hasn't been the hit they were hoping. Good pistol yes, but hard to out do something as good as the 92 series.

Accuracy of the Berettas are as good as you can aim. They are amazing natural pointers for such a large handgun.

Many people don't like the initial double action trigger pull of the 92FS, but love the follow up single actions. Personally I have no problem with the longer trigger pulls of the first shot carrying it hammer down. I also have a 9000S which has such a long trigger pull that I personally have to hold it slightly different then I am used to. It is really a strange pistol when you pull the trigger as far back as your finger will allow, and still have more pull to pull.

Prices of all 92s are going up lately, so if you can find a nice one in the $300 range, you are really lucky.

About the only issues with Beretta is factory assistance. They can be a little slow, but at least parts are available. I think the reason is that they are so busy making the M9 (military version identical to the 92FS) that they don't have time for us civilians.

Good luck, the 92FS and the zillion versions of it are great pistolas.

 

[pig957]

I've had a model 84 (380) for years. It's a nice cc weapon, never had a problem with it.