Saint John Indiana, NOT gun friendly

[williamrights]

I had a similar situation no arrest but suspension of my license. I read this entire tread yesterday and saw people scrambling for lawyers names. I used a gentleman by the name of David Hurley in Indianapolis for my issue and he was great. This was over 10 years ago though but from my experience he was good.

 

[Hammerhead]

Not only should they pay to cover all your expenses to date, that amount should be aside from any monetary award you're given. Somewhere I read of a case where a guy only got about $2500 out of a $25,000 settlement because his lawyers took the rest.

Then they should also force the police dept. into some remedial training that requires not only every cop to learn about the 2A and IN law on carry, but there should also be mandatory training for future members of the dept. in the same areas.

As far as a settlement number, tell them to think of a figure and then add four or five zeroes behind it. I'm only half joking.

 

[Love the 1911]

Sadly they (St. John) WON'T learn from this. If they settle the only thing that occurs is St. John's insurance company pays out xyz money. Next year St. John gets a slightly higher insurance payment and that will be passed on via taxes to the citizens of the town. So the actual LEOs of St. John learn nothing since it's not costing them any pain or money.


Now back to the topic. Me I would not want the money (even though I could use it). I would want the judge to give them the following order.

1) All St. John LEOs and the chief must attend a class on the US Constitution and American civics and pass from a college in the area. 1 semester class length wise.

2) All St. John LEOs are given "xyz" of community hours on talking/dealing with 2A and Indiana gun laws.


What does this do? It's REAL PUNISHMENT (ie. each LEO will have to take time off when he is not working to do this) for them. Each and every LEO will 1) learn a little and 2) and more importantly will remember "they got burned" the last time they did this and will think twice before doing it again.

Is is mean? Perhaps? Is it thinking outside the box? Hum.. not really they do that for some "civilians" when they have to go to DUI class and do community service. Apply the same concept to the LEOs (the entire dept.) and I beg you the next time one of them tries to get out of line their co-work is gonna B-Slap them before they do get out of line cause I'm sure none of them will want to do the "punishment" again.

So if your brother is convicted of DUI, you should have to go to community service with him? How about when someone leaves a bar drunk and drives, does everyone in the bar need to serve a punishment? Punish the one officer who brought this situation (possibly 2 based on the actions of the other on scene, even though he/she was out-ranked). The other officers will hear about this and likely will choose to deal with the situation in a better way should it arise in the future.

Bill, congratulations on the end of the criminal case and the end being near for the civil case. Other LEO's have commented and I agree that it's embarassing when one of our fellow officers steps out of line like this. Hope all goes well with the rest of the proceedings.

 

[INGunGuy]

So if your brother is convicted of DUI, you should have to go to community service with him? How about when someone leaves a bar drunk and drives, does everyone in the bar need to serve a punishment? Punish the one officer who brought this situation (possibly 2 based on the actions of the other on scene, even though he/she was out-ranked). The other officers will hear about this and likely will choose to deal with the situation in a better way should it arise in the future.

Bill, congratulations on the end of the criminal case and the end being near for the civil case. Other LEO's have commented and I agree that it's embarassing when one of our fellow officers steps out of line like this. Hope all goes well with the rest of the proceedings.

While I was in Boot Camp, if someone else jacked up something, WE ALL were PT'ed until we puked.... Ever heard of a blanket party? The offending dork learns real quick how to be a squared away sailor.

INGunGuy

 

[Love the 1911]

While I was in Boot Camp, if someone else jacked up something, WE ALL were PT'ed until we puked.... Ever heard of a blanket party? The offending dork learns real quick how to be a squared away sailor.

INGunGuy

So you would want the police departments to be more like the military? After boot camp, the military changes to punishing the offender, not everyone. Besides, you want a small town footing the bill to pay for their officers to enroll in college classes, pay for books, and pay overtime for them to attend class during their time off? Good luck with that.

 

[Clif45]

So you would want the police departments to be more like the military? After boot camp, the military changes to punishing the offender, not everyone. Besides, you want a small town footing the bill to pay for their officers to enroll in college classes, pay for books, and pay overtime for them to attend class during their time off? Good luck with that.

I want the small town to follow the rules and train their officers to follow the law, not make their own rules. If you smack one or two officers on the wrist most will take it as a joke, and will not take anything away from it. If you punish them all then they will all be equally subjected to it. When someone starts crossing the line then the fellow officers should step in and correct them.

 

[clgustaveson]

So you would want the police departments to be more like the military? After boot camp, the military changes to punishing the offender, not everyone. Besides, you want a small town footing the bill to pay for their officers to enroll in college classes, pay for books, and pay overtime for them to attend class during their time off? Good luck with that.

on the funding portion - not the post.

I don't dislike any officer. In, fact it is my lifetime goal to become one. I have had the dream to be a LEO since I graduated high school. Sadly I agree the entire department in St. John needs to learn. The chief has a vendetta and the road guys clearly need a refresher.

Do I think they should be punished? No, I don't think they should all be punished but I DON'T think the OP should settle and let the situation get swept under the rug.

IMHO this situation could be a learning experience for St. John, there is a reason the right to keep and bear arms exists. If this right were meant only for those with a badge we would have some serious problems.

 

[Hammerhead]

Oh, and before someone says that it's punishment for everyone to have the remedial training I suggested, or punishment for every future officer of the dept. to have mandatory 2A and IN Code training on this issue, I'm not stating that it's punishment. Every dept. generally has mandatory remedial training on a regular basis. This issue should be made very important in the next round of training for everyone from the top down.

There's clearly a culture ignoring legal gun ownership and a lack of proper instruction in this dept. if the Chief threw a hissy when this case was dismissed.

Any punishment for the dept. should be passed from the mayor's office/city council onto the chief for allowing this to happen, and onto the officer/s by whomever for their actions. This could be as simple as a permanent letter of reprimand.

The city shouldn't just get off with a payment and a hush clause.

 

[mainjet]

I don't think my finanaces, or my nerves, can take another trip to St. John any time soon.

I am glad that you "won" the fight. Something tells me that the officer in St. John would also read this and think that he "won".

As for everyone that feels that you should make the town do this or that - don't forget folks, it's the insurance company that wants to settle not the towns lawyers. The insurance company just wants to get away from this thing with as little money out of their pocket as possible. They are not really interested in telling the officers that they must take a class.

I think that we often times get a skewd view of what the settlement looks like. We think that we are going to go in there and start demanding all these things that the town must do. My bet is that Bill's lawyer is saying let's just get what we can and get out of this. I am pretty sure that Bill would like that also.

In the end the insurance company will be out a bit of money. The town will be out a bit of money to attorneys and bill will have a little bit left over after paying his attorney. Probably just enough to pay for reconstructive surgery to have the pound of flesh replaced that St. John took from him.

It's all up to Bill if he wants to continue on and fight it out in court for his right to carry openly in St. John or just quietly settle this and move on. It's a "tough one" I am sure. You don't want to give up your lawful right to carry, but proving your on the right side can sometimes be very costly both in money and in rights.

Bill it has been very interesting for me to watch this from the cheap seats. I am truely happy that you are finally coming out of this nightmare. I think that this has been a good case study for all those that carry.

 

[Wild Deuce]

We need to stop thinking of it as "punishment" and start thinking of it as educating the police officers. What is the final outcome we desire ... revenge? punishment? or is it protection of our rights in any future encounters?

Of course Bill is rightfully entitled to monetary compensation and the individual officers involved should be "punished" at an appropirate level. Involving the rest of the department should be viewed as preventive training.

 

[clgustaveson]

We need to stop thinking of it as "punishment" and start thinking of it as educating the police officers. What is the final outcome we desire ... revenge? punishment? or is it protection of our rights in any future encounters?

Of course Bill is rightfully entitled to monetary compensation and the individual officers involved should be "punished" at an appropirate level. Involving the rest of the department should be viewed as preventive training.

I wouldn't mind the punishment being more than typical for this officer. I would prefer they make an example out of him... IMHO

 

[gunbunnies]

Well I think it's clear that our Officer's throughout our fine State could use some 2A and IN State Law education on this issue from not only Bill's situation but countless other incidents dealing with our right to carry firearms. I think that such a large number of members all more or less from our fine State should take it on ourselves to petition our State Legislature to require a 2A/IN code class to be made available too our current Officers and all incoming Officers to really get this situation under control before it costs anymore of us or our cities/towns/counties tax money on the aftermath of such lack of education... Would seem reasonable to me, if it's seen as a problem let's fix it at the root... I can't see why our fellow INGO community Officers wouldn't find this too be reasonable and actually be in favor of making this happen as it would only keep your fellow Officers from making you look bad to the community you serve and keep more tax dollars in your corporations coffers for other things that are more responsible to spend those tax dollars on... What do you guy's think ??? Should we start a petition and get it heard by our legislature or just sit and take the mis-treatment and misappropriation of our tax dollars every time this situation takes place... Oh and I hear we have a very nice, already paid for facility in Plainsfield to do this class at, the Indiana State Police Academy... Low and behold....

 

[jedi]

Wrong way to go GB.

First you want to create an LLC that will focus on the type of training you want for the LEOs.

Next you lobby the critters down in Indy for your idea.

Why in that order? TO MAKE $$$ OFF COURSE!!!!
Now that is the AMERICAN WAY!

 

[gunbunnies]

I'm just putting the concept out there, the mechanics of how it works and who in the end keeps it on course I think is still up to those of us that put our hat in the program that brings it too reality... I don't need to make anything off of their training, I do see that there should be some type of over site committee made up of Indiana Gunowners that would make sure the educational program was within the scope of our petition to have it happen... This is too make a means to an ends to the willful mis-handling of our fellow gun owners when they want to exercise their right too carry... A lot of these incidents are due to a lack of education of our Officers, and would be simple to show reason for their knowledge of these rights to be generally understood to be known by each and every Officer just by the outline of their training requirements to be a said Officer... Ya, this should have been a requirement years ago when they started the Academy but it's apparent that it is not by the posts just on this forum alone... so, again is this something there is interest in or do you guy's want to make a change in what happens to the next one of us that is in Bill's shoes...

 

[jedi]

Oh GB clearly we have NOT been ingrained into the make $$$ corrupt culture of Lake County. Hum.. I think we need to have you re-educated. LOL!!

 

[clgustaveson]

Oh GB clearly we have NOT been ingrained into the make $$$ corrupt culture of Lake County. Hum.. I think we need to have you re-educated. LOL!!

If he doesn't, we can go in together... 99/1 my favor... You pay and do all the training, I'll just "lobby" the politicians. Win win!

 

[gunbunnies]

Man you guys are something else... I just wanted to fix the problem, not become a pork belly or whatever they would call that... maybe a sidewalk deal, or ........

 

[Archaic_Entity]

Man you guys are something else... I just wanted to fix the problem, not become a pork belly or whatever they would call that... maybe a sidewalk deal, or ........

The purple is a sign they're being sarcastic. I doubt they're serious about what they're saying.

Although... it does have some merits. I'm in.

 

[jedi]

Man you guys are something else... I just wanted to fix the problem, not become a pork belly or whatever they would call that... maybe a sidewalk deal, or ........

Fix the problem? Why? I'll have to get the feds involved and tell them to use the Commerece Clauses against you. If you fix the problem you are disturbing interstate economy.

1) Bill B would NOT have had to hire a lawyer to defend himself. Thus that poor lawyer would have no work.

2) In you not wanting to form an LLC to re-educate the LEOs you are thus impeding a small biz from operating and thus hiring new people who so depsresatly need jobs. Plus you make YOUR PREZ look bad as well.

The purple is a sign they're being sarcastic. I doubt they're serious about what they're saying.

Although... it does have some merits. I'm in.

Archaic_Entity correct but GB and I know each other and he know's I'm being silly.

 

[gunbunnies]

Ya, my last post should have been in purple... my bad... Because Jediagh has such faith in the word change after that last fiasco, or I mean election a couple years ago... He finds much sarcasm in the idea of making our employees "the govment" set higher standards and correct a growing and costly mistake it makes on a daily basis.

Alright let me go and find some side walks to say I redid and make some extra money off over in EC today....

On the subject at hand... if someone pipes in here and shows some interest in making this happen I'll start another thread for a discussion on how to make it work... it's a statewide project though as these things don't happen without some work and it would take interest from all of us on this board to make that happen....

Hey, if we can make this a go... then maybe we can get together and make the state accept SBS's next... won't know till someone else chimes in...