Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

[Route 45]

Kim Jong Un: North Korea leader enters Russia to visit Putin

The North Korean leader is headed to Vladivostok to discuss a potential arms deal.

www.bbc.com

 

[Brad69]

We need more Nazi comments in this thread!

 

[indyartisan]

I did nazi that coming.

 

[smokingman]

This guy...

Here's what Zelensky said as captured by the Economist interview published this week:

Curtailing aid to Ukraine will only prolong the war, Mr Zelensky argues. And it would create risks for the West in its own backyard. There is no way of predicting how the millions of Ukrainian refugees in European countries would react to their country being abandoned.
Ukrainians have generally "behaved well" and are "very grateful" to those who sheltered them. They will not forget that generosity. But it would not be a "good story" for Europe if it were to "drive these people into a corner".

A number of online commentators took note of his surprisingly open and aggressively accusatory rhetoric, saying he seems to be threatening Europe with terrorism if Ukraine doesn't get its way.

"Am I misreading this or is Zelenskyy actually threatening European countries with terrorism if they don't send the weapons he wants to Ukraine?" Arnaud Bertrand reacted. And Max Abrahms, a counterterrorism expert and professor of international relations had this to say...

Zelensky is now threatening that Ukrainian refugees will attack Europe if it doesn’t keep the gravy train running. pic.twitter.com/zKdPCiG3Gb
— Max Abrahms (@MaxAbrahms) September 12, 2023

Zelensky Issues Veiled Threat To Destabilize Europe If Weapons Flow Curtailed | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Guess regime change in Ukraine is one way out....at least for the USA. To be honest I am kind of shocked we did not do it sooner. Not even the CIA likes a rabid dog that turns on the ones feeding it.

*side note if you proxy to the UK you can read the following article without a subscription(for the lols).

"Why a map of the front line won’t tell you who’s winning the Ukraine war"​

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ll-you-whos-winning-the-ukraine-war-qdttj8rhx lol

At least we have a journalist in charge of our navy.
"Franchetti assumed the duties as Vice Chief of Naval Operations Sept. 2, 2022."

Admiral Lisa Franchetti

Adm. Lisa Franchetti is a native of Rochester, New York. She received her commission in 1985 through the Naval Reserve Officer Training Corps Program at Northwestern University, where she received a

www.navy.mil

Just in time for the largest NATO fleet exercise in the Baltic(which will start shortly before the 2024 elections...it is called "Steadfast Defender 24"
https://www.zerohedge.com/military/nato-prepares-biggest-military-exercise-cold-war-and-close-russia

 

[DadSmith]

Russia holds elections in occupied Ukrainian regions in an effort to tighten its grip there

Russian authorities are holding local elections this weekend in occupied parts of Ukraine in an effort to tighten their grip on territories Moscow illegally annexed a year ago and still does not fully control.

apnews.com

 

[Zexrain]

Russia holds elections in occupied Ukrainian regions in an effort to tighten its grip there

Russian authorities are holding local elections this weekend in occupied parts of Ukraine in an effort to tighten their grip on territories Moscow illegally annexed a year ago and still does not fully control.

apnews.com

This is Russia trying to prove that they have achieved something in Ukraine. When it can all be taken back in due time. I'm new here but it's truly amazing that Ukraine has had such strong resistance. Much respect for Ukraine.

 

[smokingman]

Russia holds elections in occupied Ukrainian regions in an effort to tighten its grip there

Russian authorities are holding local elections this weekend in occupied parts of Ukraine in an effort to tighten their grip on territories Moscow illegally annexed a year ago and still does not fully control.

apnews.com

So kind of like the locals have been doing for the last 9 years?
Granted not much has changed for them,they are still being shelled.

2014 Donbas status referendums - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Route 45]

So kind of like the locals have been doing for the last 9 years?
Granted not much has changed for them,they are still being shelled.

2014 Donbas status referendums - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Why don't you start with the Stalin era and tell us all how the "locals" in Donbas came to be "locals."

Here's a hint...

The Struggle for Ukrainian Self-Determination and Identity

Any attempt to erase Ukrainian identity will fail and Ukrainian identity will endure, writes CSIS's Nicole Aandahl.

www.csis.org

 

[smokingman]

Why don't you start with the Stalin era and tell us all how the "locals" in Donbas came to be "locals."

Here's a hint...

The Struggle for Ukrainian Self-Determination and Identity

Any attempt to erase Ukrainian identity will fail and Ukrainian identity will endure, writes CSIS's Nicole Aandahl.

www.csis.org

Ukraine in 1771(along with all baltic states and poland + a few others).

Tartaria: an Empire hidden by history, or revealed by ignorance? - Lossi 36

Bringing you news, analysis, and photography from Central and Eastern Europe, Russia, the Caucasus, and Central Asia. Shining a spotlight on the work of students and up-and-coming professionals.

lossi36.com

 

[Route 45]

Ukraine in 1771(along with all baltic states and poland + a few others).

Tartaria: an Empire hidden by history, or revealed by ignorance? - Lossi 36

Bringing you news, analysis, and photography from Central and Eastern Europe, Russia, the Caucasus, and Central Asia. Shining a spotlight on the work of students and up-and-coming professionals.

lossi36.com

Oh, FFS.

 

[smokingman]

Oh, FFS.

Encyclopedia Britannica 3rd edition 1797
Tartary. You can find it online. It was a real country with diplomacy dating back almost 200 years with China,and almost 100 years of diplomacy with Britain. But....you did not learn about it in an American school so it must not be real. lol. They still teach about it in most of northern Europe,places like oh Poland for example.

In the Footsteps of the Tatars: Poland's Only Muslim Minority

Legend has it that King Jan III Sobieski was so delighted with a Tatar cavalry captain’s service that he gave him as much land in Poland as he could travel around on horseback in one day. This is how Tatars ended up in Poland, in the eastern province of Podlasie.

culture.pl

 

[Route 45]

Stalin killed millions of Ukranians through famine and replaced them with Russians, which explains the demographics of Donbas.
How the **** is "Tartary" in 1771 relevant? Any Tartarians still around?

 

[oze]

Encyclopedia Britannica 3rd edition 1797
Tartary. You can find it online. It was a real country with diplomacy dating back almost 200 years with China,and almost 100 years of diplomacy with Britain. But....you did not learn about it in an American school so it must not be real. lol. They still teach about it in most of northern Europe,places like oh Poland for example.

In the Footsteps of the Tatars: Poland's Only Muslim Minority

Legend has it that King Jan III Sobieski was so delighted with a Tatar cavalry captain’s service that he gave him as much land in Poland as he could travel around on horseback in one day. This is how Tatars ended up in Poland, in the eastern province of Podlasie.

culture.pl

The link you posted contains 100% true information about the Tatars, and specifically their history in Poland. But nowhere in the interesting article did I see anything about some mythical kingdom of "Tartaria". Some references to one of my heroes in history, King Jan III Sobieski, which are always welcome. But no mud floods, nothing about diplomacy with China nor Great Britain.

I was told not to use the term "conspiracy theory" on INGO. So I won't.

 

[oze]

Encyclopedia Britannica 3rd edition 1797
Tartary. You can find it online. It was a real country with diplomacy dating back almost 200 years with China,and almost 100 years of diplomacy with Britain. But....you did not learn about it in an American school so it must not be real. lol. They still teach about it in most of northern Europe,places like oh Poland for example.

In the Footsteps of the Tatars: Poland's Only Muslim Minority

Legend has it that King Jan III Sobieski was so delighted with a Tatar cavalry captain’s service that he gave him as much land in Poland as he could travel around on horseback in one day. This is how Tatars ended up in Poland, in the eastern province of Podlasie.

culture.pl

 

[Route 45]

Bottom ****ing line, right here...

 

[smokingman]

The link you posted contains 100% true information about the Tatars, and specifically their history in Poland. But nowhere in the interesting article did I see anything about some mythical kingdom of "Tartaria". Some references to one of my heroes in history, King Jan III Sobieski, which are always welcome. But no mud floods, nothing about diplomacy with China nor Great Britain.

I was told not to use the term "conspiracy theory" on INGO. So I won't.

As Tomé Pires wrote in his Suma Oriental of 1515


They say that there are people from Tartary {Tartaria) in the
land of China and they call them Tartars (tartall), and these
people are very white with red beards. They ride on horseback;
they are warlike. And they say that they go from China to the
land of the Tartars (tartaros) in two months, and that in Tartary
they have horses shod with copper shoes, and this must be
because China extends a long way on the northern side, and our
bombardiers say that in Germany they heard tell of these
people and of a city named by the Chinese Quesechama^, and it
seems to them that by this route they could go to their lands in a
short time; but they say that by reason of the cold the land is
uninhabited. Between the Chinese and the Tartars are certain places where there are the Guores

Full text of "The Suma oriental of Tomé Pires : an account of the East, from the Red Sea to Japan, written in Malacca and India in 1512-1515 ; and, the book of Francisco Rodrigues, rutter of a voyage in the Red Sea, nautical rules, almanack and maps

Chapter 4 The Tartars in European Missionary Writings of the Seventeenth Century

"Chapter 4 The Tartars in European Missionary Writings of the Seventeenth Century" published on 28 Jan 2020 by Brill.

brill.com

I never mentioned mud flood either,just that it was a real kingdom. I believe the origin of the mud flood was a redit page created in 2016. It is not something I have given any credit either.

 

[smokingman]

Russia's Navy Port At Sevastopol On Fire After Massive Ukraine Missile Attack | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

 

[oze]

As Tomé Pires wrote in his Suma Oriental of 1515


They say that there are people from Tartary {Tartaria) in the
land of China and they call them Tartars (tartall), and these
people are very white with red beards. They ride on horseback;
they are warlike. And they say that they go from China to the
land of the Tartars (tartaros) in two months, and that in Tartary
they have horses shod with copper shoes, and this must be
because China extends a long way on the northern side, and our
bombardiers say that in Germany they heard tell of these
people and of a city named by the Chinese Quesechama^, and it
seems to them that by this route they could go to their lands in a
short time; but they say that by reason of the cold the land is
uninhabited. Between the Chinese and the Tartars are certain places where there are the Guores

Full text of "The Suma oriental of Tomé Pires : an account of the East, from the Red Sea to Japan, written in Malacca and India in 1512-1515 ; and, the book of Francisco Rodrigues, rutter of a voyage in the Red Sea, nautical rules, almanack and maps

Chapter 4 The Tartars in European Missionary Writings of the Seventeenth Century

"Chapter 4 The Tartars in European Missionary Writings of the Seventeenth Century" published on 28 Jan 2020 by Brill.

brill.com

I never mentioned mud flood either,just that it was a real kingdom. I believe the origin of the mud flood was a redit page created in 2016. It is not something I have given any credit either.

I've not even addressed this "kingdom". Just the fact that the article you attached makes no mention of it.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

As Tomé Pires wrote in his Suma Oriental of 1515


They say that there are people from Tartary {Tartaria) in the
land of China and they call them Tartars (tartall), and these
people are very white with red beards. They ride on horseback;
they are warlike. And they say that they go from China to the
land of the Tartars (tartaros) in two months, and that in Tartary
they have horses shod with copper shoes, and this must be
because China extends a long way on the northern side, and our
bombardiers say that in Germany they heard tell of these
people and of a city named by the Chinese Quesechama^, and it
seems to them that by this route they could go to their lands in a
short time; but they say that by reason of the cold the land is
uninhabited. Between the Chinese and the Tartars are certain places where there are the Guores

Full text of "The Suma oriental of Tomé Pires : an account of the East, from the Red Sea to Japan, written in Malacca and India in 1512-1515 ; and, the book of Francisco Rodrigues, rutter of a voyage in the Red Sea, nautical rules, almanack and maps

Chapter 4 The Tartars in European Missionary Writings of the Seventeenth Century

"Chapter 4 The Tartars in European Missionary Writings of the Seventeenth Century" published on 28 Jan 2020 by Brill.

brill.com

I never mentioned mud flood either,just that it was a real kingdom. I believe the origin of the mud flood was a redit page created in 2016. It is not something I have given any credit either.

What is your point, though?

That it's okay to use military aggression to restore centuries-old empires?

At first I thought I could somewhat see your point, being that the region has been through a series of maybe-phony, maybe-real elections and referendums for the last decade, if not more, whether they are under Ukrainian or Russian control, and for all we know the real sentiment of the majority there might really be that they'd like to be Russian at this point, and we don't really have a reliable gauge with which to determine that one way or the other. Fine, if that's what you were getting at with your reference to the 2014 referendums, I'll grant you that much. Still a far cry from justifying violent military invasion by a foreign power, but there's a point to be made there, I'll admit.

But when you start talking about 18th-century kingdoms and empires, you totally lose me. Do you not realize the extent to which nearly 3 centuries, 2 world wars, and massive oppression, ethnic purging, and purposeful starvation under communist regimes, has changed and re-shaped the entirety of Ukraine and the surrounding area? Trying to bring in talk of how borders were laid out in the 1700's is about as relevant as talking about the areas occupied by different Indian tribes in reference to modern American politics.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Ukraine in 1771(along with all baltic states and poland + a few others).

Tartaria: an Empire hidden by history, or revealed by ignorance? - Lossi 36

Bringing you news, analysis, and photography from Central and Eastern Europe, Russia, the Caucasus, and Central Asia. Shining a spotlight on the work of students and up-and-coming professionals.

lossi36.com

I take it you didn't actually read your link? It makes the opposite point that I think you are trying to make. In that it wasn't a Kingdom/nation like in Western Europe, but various groups of nomadic tribes. It would be about the same as categorizing all of N America pre-Columbas as one Kingdom/nation.