Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

[jamil]

I can imagine all sorts of nonsense.

Like how fighting against a foreign power who has invaded your territory is decried as “waging perpetual war” by knuckleheads on the internet.

How much of our country would you be willing to cede to an invading enemy?

Or like doing just about all the things you could do to help ensure someone would invade. But if someone invades you without that there’s a built in incentive to prolong it.

Better to have elections regardless. That way if your leader turns out to be a corrupt schmuck you at least have a theoretical opportunity to replace the *******.

 

[Route 45]

Or like doing just about all the things you could do to help ensure someone would invade. But if someone invades you without that there’s a built in incentive to prolong it.

Better to have elections regardless. That way if your leader turns out to be a corrupt schmuck you at least have a theoretical opportunity to replace the *******.

Unusual to see this kind of nuttery from you. You must be really pissed at those aid packages.

 

[BugI02]

Unusual to see this kind of nuttery from you. You must be really pissed at those aid packages.

Nah, he's probably just wondering why JoePedo couldn't have had the attention span for an orderly withdrawal from Afghanistan, just transhipped all the military equipment to Ukraine instead of abandoning it, and saved us all some money - maybe use the money to control the southern border or something that matters to ordinary people

Ukraine and Russia are the EUs problem and they should be taking the lead instead of holding our coat

 

[BigRed]

Ukraine and Russia are the EUs problem and they should be taking the lead instead of holding our coat

Amen.

 

[jamil]

Unusual to see this kind of nuttery from you. You must be really pissed at those aid packages.

True enough that I think we’ve overspent any reasonable obligation to Ukraine. But also true. If you wanted Russia to invade, you’d behave like the US and Ukraine did leading up to the invasion. Like I said, even if they hadn’t, there’s not a whole lot of incentive for Zelensky to end it.

 

[Thor]

At the fall of the Soviet Onion and it's break up into individual states the Ukraine was the third largest nuclear power in the world.

Bill (spit on him) Clinton and Yeltzin worked an agreement that the Ukraine would give up its nuclear stockpile for assurances of support for it's border security. Russia would not invade and the United States would provide security assurances. Russia would take back the nukes and destroy them (not turn them into new nukes...like they did)

How has that worked out for them?

The lesson here seems to be that if you can get nukes and keep them you may secure you borders from a ravenous neighbor...and no assurances from the US can be counted on unless written in treaties held by many other countries.

Bidet continues to lead from behind, giving the Ukraine only what it needs to keep fighting but not enough to win. As opposed to doing the right thing and driving the bastards from their country. Either that our our word has never meant anything.

 

[Route 45]

True enough that I think we’ve overspent any reasonable obligation to Ukraine. But also true. If you wanted Russia to invade, you’d behave like the US and Ukraine did leading up to the invasion.

Yes, Ukraine got raped because its skirt was too short.

 

[1DOWN4UP]

My shorts are kind of short...

 

[bobzilla]

I'd let the British burn DC again

Would they do that for us?

 

[1DOWN4UP]

If we can find fifty righteous people in the city of Washington D.C., we should spare the whole place for their sake.

 

[DragonGunner]

At the fall of the Soviet Onion and it's break up into individual states the Ukraine was the third largest nuclear power in the world.

Bill (spit on him) Clinton and Yeltzin worked an agreement that the Ukraine would give up its nuclear stockpile for assurances of support for it's border security. Russia would not invade and the United States would provide security assurances. Russia would take back the nukes and destroy them (not turn them into new nukes...like they did)

How has that worked out for them?

The lesson here seems to be that if you can get nukes and keep them you may secure you borders from a ravenous neighbor...and no assurances from the US can be counted on unless written in treaties held by many other countries.

Bidet continues to lead from behind, giving the Ukraine only what it needs to keep fighting but not enough to win. As opposed to doing the right thing and driving the bastards from their country. Either that our our word has never meant anything.

I said this way long ago in the thread. The Ukraine Generals said to keep the nukes but nobody listened. They gave up their “2A” on the unwritten agreement that Russia, US and Britain would protect them from any invasion. Lol. They learned a hard lesson. In another note all of that entire area and Europe are always changing over the centuries. Not our problem. But $ is to be made. And our military complex and those using it to make $$ are running the clown show.

 

[blain]

On the other hand, if you just want to stay in power indefinitely wage a perpetual war and have the US pay for it.

Can you imagine the campaign commercial if he'd have suggested that when he ran? I build big war and make US pay for it.

Maybe our Constitution could be amended to include the suspension of elections in time of "war". Since the U.S. is basically at war all the time, a Biden Dynasty would last forever. The ultimate Trump-Block.
OF COURSE when I say "war" I'm NOT talking about an officially declared war by Congress. They have far more important things to attend to other than getting their hands dirty with any war business.
After all they just declared war in 1942.

 

[kiddchaos]

It's long, but walk a mile.

 

[BugI02]

Yes, Ukraine got raped because its skirt was too short.

No, Ukraine ****ed around and found out, starting way back before the annexation of Crimea when they sought to dispossess Russia of one of its few warm water naval bases

You DO know that we almost invaded Cuba because of positioning of offensive weaponry too close to our borders, yes? Why would you expect the Russians to be any different

Ukraine ignored realpolitik because they were counting on the west to bail them out if everything went south - and when one says 'the west' essentially that means the US when it comes to meaningful projection of force

THAT'S what people - regular people - are tired of. Too much blood and treasure wasted already. It isn't a moral issue, it is a 'not our fight' issue

 

[BigRed]

If we can find fifty righteous people in the city of Washington D.C., we should spare the whole place for their sake.

I know how that story goes.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I know how that story goes.

 

[BugI02]

A statue of jamil?

 

[jamil]

Yes, Ukraine got raped because its skirt was too short.

I was actually going to use that analogy, but thought eh, that would be tacky. But since you opened that can of tacky, let's look at what's in it.

The girl who goes around showing her ass is not to blame for getting raped. The rapist has sole blame for that. But when we evaluate all the things she could have done to minimize the chances of getting raped, were there things she could have done better? Of course. And did it help her not get raped when her new friend Usa, encouraged her to show her ass to people who might rape her? No. It did not help matters. It contributed to the outcome.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

I was actually going to use that analogy, but thought eh, that would be tacky. But since you opened that can of tacky, let's look at what's in it.

The girl who goes around showing her ass is not to blame for getting raped. The rapist has sole blame for that. But when we evaluate all the things she could have done to minimize the chances of getting raped, were there things she could have done better? Of course. And did it help her not get raped when her new friend Usa, encouraged her to show her ass to people who might rape her? No. It did not help matters. It contributed to the outcome.

I think I can still see @Route 45's point, though, which is that now is not the time to focus on the coulda woulda soulda of how this situation might have been avoided. Right now, in our analogy, the rape is actively in progress, and the focus needs to be on stopping it as quickly as possible, and then we can sort out what could have been done better.

Now, I also see @jamil's point, that both Ukraine and the USA have corrupt leadership who are more than happy to throw away not only financial resources but also human lives to drag out a war that the former lacks the ability and the latter the moral fortitude to win in the long run. And it's not fair to assume that anyone who points that out must be gunning for Russia. One can absolutely be opposed to Russia, while also believing that the USA's current strategy going to nothing but drag out a pointless struggle before it ultimately reaches the same end it was always going to.

But then again, I have to ask, what do we really think we, as a county, ought to do? It's easy to say that we should either fully commit to stopping Russia, or else pull out of the whole thing. But do we really want to risk nuclear Armageddon by launching all-out war with Russia? On the other hand, I don't really believe that the right thing to do is to say "not our problem", and leave Ukraine to the mercy of an evil dictator seeking to rebuild a communist empire. To go back to our analogy, if you see a woman being raped, would you feel comfortable saying "Oh, she shouldn't have gone down that dark alley dressed that way to being with, besides it's not my problem, it's the police or her family who should be taking the lead on saving her. I'm just gonna go on my merry way."?

Now perhaps I'm reading too much into this conversation, and if the point being made is only meant to focus specifically on the suspension of elections in Ukraine, I definitely tend to take @jamil's side, which seems to be simply that Zelensky is a corrupt politician who, like it or not, did not do a very good job of acting to prevent the metaphorical rape of his country, so the Ukrainian people would be right to want a chance to swap him out for a leader who has the true interests of his country in mind.

But then again, I really don't know how you reliably find and elect such a man; it's hard enough in time of peace, let along in time of war.

 

[KellyinAvon]

If the DoD (through an accounting gimmick) can magically come up with another $6.2B... are there any expectations of this being anything but a bottomless money pit?

Who came up with the (my guess here) use depreciated value vice replacement/unit cost to magically create $6.2B in extra money? Are they close to retiring from .mil and will be found on the board of (defense contractor name here) since a WHOLE LOT of stuff needs replacing?

We now return you to the Ukraine/Russia thread already in progress.