Running toward the sound of gunfire

[Trigger Time]

Maybe a better question is who would seek out the tv cameras afterwards if you did run to help? Reporters could kiss my ass.

 

[dusterboy49]

^^^This^^^

 

[calcot7]

And what if it really was the good guy, shooting past the innocents at the actual killer? When bullets are flying what are the possibilities of seeing every detail?

What if suddenly you are face to face with any man with a gun? Shoot or analyze? While he's doing the same? Raise your gun or not? While he's doing the same?

If you know there are bad guys there, but only heard their shots, how do you determine armed BG's from armed GG's?

...............shooting past the innocents...... Then he is a really bad shot and should die because he did not practice enough.

 

[Fargo]

That was '86.

Yes, it was 86 and a lot has been learned/changed since then, particularly patrol rifles. That said, how many hours year does the average police officer spend practicing operating as a fire team? What are the odds that those who show up will be anyone he has even practiced with before.

I'm in no way slighting the police or their courage, but they are generally NOT trained to act as a military unit.

From a strategic standpoint, what we are talking about here is not really criminal acts with criminal goals. We are talking about a small military engagement and as I said before, it is going to take A LOT of time/resources for domestic law enforcement to be able to project enough force to win that battle against a trained and dedicated military force.

That is not a slight on the cops, they are neither trained nor equipped to fight a true military engagement. The closest they come is SWAT/ERT and how long does it take for a callout to fully assemble?

Best,

Joe

 

[Westside]

Leroy Jenkins!!!!

I think "running towards" gun fire can be summed up in those two words.

 

[KG1]

This mall attack is completely different from really any active shooter incident in the U.S. to date and parallels closest to Beslan from what I can see. Current active shooter protocols are going to be pretty much useless in an engagement with basically a couple of fire teams. Rushing guys into something like this on an as arrive piecemeal basis is simply going to allow the aggressors to mop them with relative ease.

Realistically, U.S. law enforcement in general is going to really struggle to win a fight like this; look at the Miami shootout in 86. A marine and a ranger went through triple our quadruple their number of FBI agents in a non-ambush scenario. It is going to take ALOT of time/resources for domestic LE to respond effectively to something like this.

As has been pointed out repeatedly above, CCW/off duty officer engagement with lone active shooters generally has a fair bit of success. In the face of something like this, you are almost certainly going to die quickly. Not that that means I would not engage or would discourage others from engaging. I'd much rather die fighting than shot in the back. I also have to be realistic about what it going to happen to me.

Realistically, I would probably end up dying trying to fight some sort of rearguard action to get my family out. Against folks with AK's and armor, it is unlikely I will kill any of them.

Best,

Joe

I think Fargo has covered it here. The situation in Kenya is vastly different then say, what happened in Sandy Hook with a lone crazed gunman. It would be far easier for me to say that I would actively engage in a situation with a lone gunman if the opportunity presented itself than to go on the offensive (running toward the gunfire) against numerous assaliants trained and armed as a group intent on carrying out a military style raid.

 

[Trigger Time]

Yes, it was 86 and a lot has been learned/changed since then, particularly patrol rifles. That said, how many hours year does the average police officer spend practicing operating as a fire team? What are the odds that those who show up will be anyone he has even practiced with before.

I'm in no way slighting the police or their courage, but they are generally NOT trained to act as a military unit.

From a strategic standpoint, what we are talking about here is not really criminal acts with criminal goals. We are talking about a small military engagement and as I said before, it is going to take A LOT of time/resources for domestic law enforcement to be able to project enough force to win that battle against a trained and dedicated military force.

That is not a slight on the cops, they are neither trained nor equipped to fight a true military engagement. The closest they come is SWAT/ERT and how long does it take for a callout to fully assemble?

Best,

Joe

+1

I'm sure our officers have better judgement than to go head to head with a trained and well armed force. I'm sure SWAT has rehearsed for these type of scenarios and have formulated a plan of action involving other officers to compliment their actions. Also all of the federal Leo's that would be popping out of the woodwork and take over most likely? And I its deemed to be a paramilitary force then the national guard should be called in and leave no option off the table.

 

[Scout]

It's hard to say from my keyboard, but I'm pretty sure that what I would do is make sure that whoever I am with gets out ok, and then help others to get out.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

+1

I'm sure our officers have better judgement than to go head to head with a trained and well armed force. I'm sure SWAT has rehearsed for these type of scenarios and have formulated a plan of action involving other officers to compliment their actions. Also all of the federal Leo's that would be popping out of the woodwork and take over most likely? And I its deemed to be a paramilitary force then the national guard should be called in and leave no option off the table.

I'm sure we'd get some help on the Fed side if the time allowed from their SWAT style units, but your average Fed cop is more of an investigator than a street cop or "operator". They aren't going to be of any more use at the early stages than street cops. Would they take over the investigation afterward? Pfft, I hope so, that's going to be a butt load of paperwork.

On a side note, that's one of the least realistic aspects of police interaction on TV. There's little to no "This is MY investigation and you're in MY way." Its usually more "Oh, you want it? Here's the file, I'm off to the next one."

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Did anybody else notice the apparent civilians with pistols?

From radio reports, I believe that mall has a heavy armed guard presence. I have no idea if Kenyans are allowed to carry when going on their daily routine or not, but it's an interesting question if anyone cares to research it.

 

[j706]

Perhaps I am in the minority but I can say with confidence that I sure as heck will not be running off. Call it stupid or whatever it matters none. I could vision booking off to my car to get better equipped. 95% of the time I am in a patrol car whether on or off duty and for a reason other than free gas. Inside that car is the necessary weapons like M4 carbine, .308 rifle, shotgun, smoke and plenty of ammunition for myself and many others who didn't bring enough, ballistic protection ect. I even have a few extra weapons that could possibly be loaned out to the willing and able. Those things are not there by mistake and most are there at great expense from my own wallet. Would it make a difference? Don't know but we would most assuredly find out.

In something like this mall attack doing nothing is not an option. Those type of thugs need and expect no resistance. Any resistance no matter how minimal would likely save life's and possibly cause change in plans, delays ect. It is highly likely that some determined and accurate resistance could have a serious containment effect, at least in the resisted direction. These kind of idiots want body counts.

Like Denny and others have said there is no way I could live with the fact that I did nothing. Ain't gonna happen. I would plan on giving them all that I could possible give using all of my military and LE training to its fullest. Bet on it.

FWIW I think it is just a matter of time before we will see this type of attacks right here. Coming soon to a congested place near you. I think you can bet on that too.

 

[USMC-Johnson]

Its hard to say what someone will do after the initial shots are fired. But in those moments you have the highest likely hood of succeeding in your goal of coming out on top. Surprise goes both ways.

It depends way to much on the situation if i'm going towards or away. if i hear 4 or 5 bursts from separate AK47s i'm probably not gonna go sprinting into that with my glock. Situation dependent

 

[PapaScout]

My pistol is to keep me and my family safe from an attacker. I'm not trained to engage multiple shooters and certainly not using a pistol against several rifles. The Good Guy in me would want to help so maybe I can cover others and try to get them out the back of the building without directly engaging unless forced.

 

[Birds Away]

The real issue in this scenario is how the flood of good guys rushing to the scene will be able to identify you as a good guy? While my instincts would be to help, if possible, I think the most likely outcome is that you would become collateral damage when the wave of good guys arrives.

 

[findingZzero]

In the fog of war, no one is safe.

I do all my shopping on Amazon. The first person to invent a way to punch you in the face thru the internet will be a billionaire. As a precaution I always face away from the screen. As a result, I get these terrible headaches.

Under the kind of stress involved in a shooting situation, even trained folks mess up. I've run toward an accident, and an explosion. No one was shooting back though.....

You see someone shooting, but can't see the target. Is he a good guy or a bad guy? Study the situation. I do my worst studying when under severe stress. The target was a woman and a baby. Shoot at the guy in the black hat and hope he ain't a C&W singer..

 

[88E30M50]

I've long wondered why we have not seen anything happen like this in the US. I have no idea how I would react in that type of situation, but I don't know that I'd be able to bolt through a back door if there were kids or elderly folks behind me. On the other hand, I don't know that I'd re-enact the last scene from 'Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid' either. I guess it would depend to some degree on what I had with me. If I'm pocket carrying a Sig P238 that day, I am pretty much unarmed in that situation. My only hope would be if one of the bad guys walked backwards slowly towards me. If I had my Glock 20 and a couple of spare mags, I'd feel a lot better but would still be no match for a team on a suicide mission with long rifles. Some situations defy finding a winning scenario. A win in that case might just be minimizing the loss.

 

[actaeon277]

If this happened in the US, people would die trying to film it on their phone, trying to get their minute of fame.

 

[Double T]

If you are going to respond, dial 911 immediately from cover and let them know your absolute description and what you are carrying.

Typically if I'm at a mall, I'm with my wife and kids. So our safety is paramount so she'd grab em and go and I would cover their exit to the rear of the nearest store.

 

[-Jake-]

No way I'd take on guys with AKs with my little .380 lol. I'd be exiting ASAP with me and mine.

 

[daddyusmaximus]

I have before. I could not live with myself if someone died from my inaction.

^^^ This, on both accounts. It would hound me forever.