Running toward the sound of gunfire

[shibumiseeker]

I can think of situations where I would run towards it, and I can think of situations where I would run away from it. I've not been in a gunfire situation but more than once in my life I have placed myself in immediate danger to help others. I know how I react to many high stress situations.

 

[MadMan66]

I carry a firearm to protect myself and my loved ones around me. I'll use it only as a last resort. I'll try my best to escape without confrontation. If those in harms way choose not to carry themselves, then they made their choice to rely on paid LEO to protect them, not law abiding citizens who chose to exercise their right. That's my . Maybe I'm not as noble as a few of you, and for that, I respect anyone who would put themselves in danger for strangers.

If I'm in any mall, you better believe it's because my fiance dragged me there for one reason or another. She means the world to me, and I wouldn't be able to live with myself if she got killed because I tried to be the hero. I posted on here about our encounter downtown when a punk opened fire not more than 30 yards from us. A punk we just walked past 20 seconds beforehand. Her and I ran up to the next block, keeping myself in between her and the shooter. So I know from experience what I would do, and the action I took is one I will never regret. The nature of the shooting we encountered was not like the one posted, but when the shots fired, we hadn't a clue who the intended target or motive was.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Ditto. It wouldn't be practical to counter attack but fighting a rear guard action from ambush, to cover others getting out, is doable. I recall a rule-of-thumb that you need 3:1 numerical superiority for a successful attack--and that's with the enemy NOT being entrenched. In a MOUT situation that number might be 6:1 or 9:1. It was interesting seeing some presumably unarmed people waiting around and trying to assess the situation.

I've been to MOUT training. I was a Combat Engineer and went through MOUT emphasizing the use of explosives in both small unit assault and delaying actions. One gunman armed with a handgun against 12 trained and armored assailants using long guns and hand grenades is not a rear guard action. You have no mobility advantage. You have no coordination with other resistance and covering fire as you fall back. You have no obstacles to lay to delay your attacker. You have no ambushes to set as friendlies filter out. This might work against your typical mentally unstable active shooter who often offs himself at the first hint of resistance. Its unlikely to work against dedicated suicide attackers who have all the advantages of numbers, firepower, coordination, etc.

 

[TTravis]

I was also a Combat Engineer!

 

[singlesix]

You're in a mall might as well go fun Mall Ninja.

 

[Fargo]

This mall attack is completely different from really any active shooter incident in the U.S. to date and parallels closest to Beslan from what I can see. Current active shooter protocols are going to be pretty much useless in an engagement with basically a couple of fire teams. Rushing guys into something like this on an as arrive piecemeal basis is simply going to allow the aggressors to mop them with relative ease.

Realistically, U.S. law enforcement in general is going to really struggle to win a fight like this; look at the Miami shootout in 86. A marine and a ranger went through triple our quadruple their number of FBI agents in a non-ambush scenario. It is going to take ALOT of time/resources for domestic LE to respond effectively to something like this.

As has been pointed out repeatedly above, CCW/off duty officer engagement with lone active shooters generally has a fair bit of success. In the face of something like this, you are almost certainly going to die quickly. Not that that means I would not engage or would discourage others from engaging. I'd much rather die fighting than shot in the back. I also have to be realistic about what it going to happen to me.

Realistically, I would probably end up dying trying to fight some sort of rearguard action to get my family out. Against folks with AK's and armor, it is unlikely I will kill any of them.

Best,

Joe

 

[bwframe]

What if the "terrorist" you kill was just another good guy trying to save the day like yourself?
Vice versa?

 

[Tactical Flannel]

Like most of you, ensuring family/loved ones safety first when possible is job number one.
I'd then advance to the point to see the situation. Lone gun man, probably look to go forward like John Wayne (or an idiot, you decide).... 10 gunmen with rifle, armor, grenades, etc... backing the hell up providing info to 911/dispatch to prevent the lone LEO from running in thinking it was a lone gunman active shooter. And if possible, assisting to get others out as I backup. NOT wasting time to convince them to move from sheltering in place. They've made their decisions by that time.
I wouldn't think that 30 citizens carrying in an American mall would be a effective force to counter this kind of event. Minimal ammo, strangers, handguns only presumably, family/loved ones to concern about.... it would be tough at best in my opinion.

Stay safe

 

[actaeon277]

What if the "terrorist" you kill was just another good guy trying to save the day like yourself?
Vice versa?

I think when you see that "good guy" shoot a woman and her two children, you might have a clue he's not a "good guy".

 

[bwframe]

I think when you see that "good guy" shoot a woman and her two children, you might have a clue he's not a "good guy".

And what if it really was the good guy, shooting past the innocents at the actual killer? When bullets are flying what are the possibilities of seeing every detail?

What if suddenly you are face to face with any man with a gun? Shoot or analyze? While he's doing the same? Raise your gun or not? While he's doing the same?

If you know there are bad guys there, but only heard their shots, how do you determine armed BG's from armed GG's?

 

[SERparacord]

Merry Christmas and happy shopping on Black Friday.

 

[bingley]

As we know, reality is often not what Hollywood would have us believe. In movies we see hordes of people fleeing as "bad guys" fire off rounds in public places.

So imagine the strange feeling in my gut when I watched this video taken during the recent mall shooting in Africa. I wasn't focused on the political issues of the shooting, the gunmen, or their equipment. What struck me as strange was the sound of distant indoor gunfire, and the mixed reactions of the people who were hearing it. Neither fit my preconceived notions of what they should look and sound like.

Whaaaa? Movies lie to us? People don't scream and run around like headless chickens? They don't turn into murdering raping cannibals? (It's the same thing with Hollywood depictions of disasters. Alas, a lot of people are basing their emergency preparation based on that, not on reality.)

Another part of the equation may be cultural. You can definitely see these people are foreign. I watched a video shot during the Japanese tsunami. The Japanese were as cool and calm as cucumbers. Apparently they drill for disasters regularly, and so they seemed practiced. No one was screaming and running around, even though a massive wall of water was coming in. The town even erupted in flames.

Back to Kenya. A news report informed me that the mall in Kenya is where people can feel safe. The rest of the country is not so safe, but malls can hire guards. So the well-to-do people hang out in malls, and some journalists surmise that may be why the terrorists picked the mall, to tell them there is no safe place out of the reach of terrorists. So maybe the psychological element is a part of it too. Maybe in the video it hasn't clicked for them that they're in deep doodoo. Or maybe I'm too naive to think that. After all, they probably see and expect more violence than we do.

As for what CCW people can do against what amounts to a military operation with hardened, trained, equipped fighters willing to sacrifice their lives, forget it. We have a chance against common criminals. We may have a chance against mass shooters if we don't die in the first ten seconds. But against a real military invasion? Adios.

 

[bwframe]

Merry Christmas and happy shopping on Black Friday.

You don't have to question whether it best to run in or not if you aren't there. One of my favorite instructors for years has encouraged staying away from large gatherings. Black Friday is a great day to shop online.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

This mall attack is completely different from really any active shooter incident in the U.S. to date and parallels closest to Beslan from what I can see. Current active shooter protocols are going to be pretty much useless in an engagement with basically a couple of fire teams. Rushing guys into something like this on an as arrive piecemeal basis is simply going to allow the aggressors to mop them with relative ease.

Realistically, U.S. law enforcement in general is going to really struggle to win a fight like this; look at the Miami shootout in 86. A marine and a ranger went through triple our quadruple their number of FBI agents in a non-ambush scenario. It is going to take ALOT of time/resources for domestic LE to respond effectively to something like this.

As has been pointed out repeatedly above, CCW/off duty officer engagement with lone active shooters generally has a fair bit of success. In the face of something like this, you are almost certainly going to die quickly. Not that that means I would not engage or would discourage others from engaging. I'd much rather die fighting than shot in the back. I also have to be realistic about what it going to happen to me.

Realistically, I would probably end up dying trying to fight some sort of rearguard action to get my family out. Against folks with AK's and armor, it is unlikely I will kill any of them.

Best,

Joe

That was '86.

 

[lovemachine]

I think when you see that "good guy" shoot a woman and her two children, you might have a clue he's not a "good guy".

I'm curious.

With all the screaming, bullets flying, the sounds of gunfire, panicked frightened people running for their lives, would a good guy with a gun REALLY be able to distinguish a good guy from a bad guy? Sure, a man holding a rifle would be easy to spot, but someone with a pistol?

Can one be able to figure out, quickly, who's a good guy or a bad guy with all of that going on?


As a good guy with a gun, I'd like to think I'd be able to react the proper way. My first responsibility is to make sure my family is safe. Now, I would also never be able to forgive myself if I didn't try to eliminate the threat. How many people could I have saved?

But in a large public area involving an active shooter, I often wondered how "easy" it would be to identify the bad guy with everything else going on.

 

[jake blue]

Maybe I'm not into the spirit of this forum but speaking for myself I carry for SELF-defense first and foremost, not because I want to usurp the role of law enforcement. I would find good cover, shepherd others into the same, and be prepared to defend myself and them if the gunmen approach. I am not going to confront the gunmen and attempt to stop them single-handed... to think I am prepared to do so is simply so much machismo from the safety of my computer keyboard. Finding myself in that sort of situation isn't something I desire but it is something I'm willing to prepare for, both physically and mentally. I know I cannot save every life but I can do my part to help reduce the body count by protecting myself in order to provide defensive cover for those around me until appropriate law enforcement response is available.

 

[Expat]

I'm curious.

With all the screaming, bullets flying, the sounds of gunfire, panicked frightened people running for their lives, would a good guy with a gun REALLY be able to distinguish a good guy from a bad guy? Sure, a man holding a rifle would be easy to spot, but someone with a pistol?

Can one be able to figure out, quickly, who's a good guy or a bad guy with all of that going on?


As a good guy with a gun, I'd like to think I'd be able to react the proper way. My first responsibility is to make sure my family is safe. Now, I would also never be able to forgive myself if I didn't try to eliminate the threat. How many people could I have saved?

But in a large public area involving an active shooter, I often wondered how "easy" it would be to identify the bad guy with everything else going on.

Wear a white hat...

 

[Kutnupe14]

If I'm with family, FIRST, I'm getting them out of there to a car and see them off. Then (and I'd my brain would be telling "you're stupid"), I'd head back towrads the sound of gunfire, take a good defensive position, direct all the endangered past me, and wait.

 

[Tinner666]

Did anybody else notice the apparent civilians with pistols? As a rule, they were taking cover and even waving unarmed civilians to relative safety behind them. In early footage, I even saw one man in civies leading a child or two outside the mall and he had a pistol in is hand.

Having been in several active shooter situations, I can assure you the best course of action for me has been to take cover with my pistol drawn and try to understand the situation. WIth all the confusion and running people, I have yet to try to take a shot becasue it never got to the point, with one exception, that I could ID the bad guy and I wasn't the target.

As for PD vs good guy, I was in my hood when all heck broke loose between PD and BG's and on my scanner I heard one hollering that the road I was on needed to be closed. I was a block away and there were lots of shots being fired. I slid the car to block the road and got behind it, pistol in hand. As cops arrived from behind me, I waved them up and let them know where the danger was and they moved forward. There were no issues with them.

The exception? I was the target and the BG was about 35-40 yards away. I had a bead on his head, but there were civilians and heavy traffic behind him. I was behind my truck and held fire. When he took off towards the traffic, etc. I let him go, loaded my truck and went to the jobsite.

Armchair heroics are fine, but reality can change that perception.

 

[Trigger Time]

It would depend if i had a well balanced breakfast that day or not.