Republicans will stand up on guns but not abortion

[Expat]

How is that the domain of "christian crazies"?

Please provide your rationale for that assertion.

He has made it pretty clear on prior occasions that he hates us brother, accept it and move on. He has said some pretty vile things about Christians in the past (and a lack of understanding of bash commands, in spite of posing as an expert). So I no longer avail myself of the opportunity to read his posts unless someone like you quotes him.

 

[Mad Macs]

Ok, so you're blanket saying that only Christians logically arrive at the conclusion that human life begins at conception. Well assume, for the sake of argument, that your generalization is true. Then like I asked earlier, somewhere, when in a person's development do they become human beings? There has to be a defined moment where the free thinking, enlightened ones believe it occurs. Now, if you back up in time from that point, just 1 millisecond, what is the status?

Good question, and an excellent discussion topic!

I honestly don't think there's a line in the sand here that's static. I know that we want one, but I don't think this will happen. What about when the baby can survive outside of the mother?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

He has made it pretty clear on prior occasions that he hates us brother, accept it and move on. He has said some pretty vile things about Christians in the past (and a lack of understanding of bash commands, in spite of posing as an expert). So I no longer avail myself of the opportunity to read his posts unless someone like you quotes him.

And that's why this will be my last swing at this...

Good question, and an excellent discussion topic!

I honestly don't think there's a line in the sand here that's static. I know that we want one, but I don't think this will happen. What about when the baby can survive outside of the mother?

Why not a fail-safe moment/status the insures that the most possible people get a chance to be happy, get to shoot an AR in fully automatic, or hold their own new born kids in their arms?

 

[Bunnykid68]

Fetal heartbeats can be heard and/or seen as early as 18 days after conception.

 

[Mad Macs]

He has made it pretty clear on prior occasions that he hates us brother, accept it and move on. He has said some pretty vile things about Christians in the past (and a lack of understanding of bash commands, in spite of posing as an expert). So I no longer avail myself of the opportunity to read his posts unless someone like you quotes him.

What??? I've never said I hate Christians. I don't agree with Christians, but that's another discussion.

I don't like it when people try to impose their religious beliefs into legislation and pass laws governing us based on what their "God" says.

 

[Mad Macs]

And that's why this will be my last swing at this...

Why not a fail-safe moment/status the insures that the most possible people get a chance to be happy, get to shoot an AR in fully automatic, or hold their own new born kids in their arms?

Agreed, so when the kid pops out they're cool?

Look, we're not going to agree on this. I'm a mix of Liberal and Conservative but I'm liberal in this view and that's how I feel. You're not going to get me to change my feelings or thoughts on this on an Internet forum.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Originally Posted by Expat
He has made it pretty clear on prior occasions that he hates us brother, accept it and move on. He has said some pretty vile things about Christians in the past (and a lack of understanding of bash commands, in spite of posing as an expert). So I no longer avail myself of the opportunity to read his posts unless someone like you quotes him.

What??? I've never said I hate Christians. I don't agree with Christians, but that's another discussion.

I don't like it when people try to impose their religious beliefs into legislation and pass laws governing us based on what their "God" says.

....

 

[poptab]

Agreed, so when the kid pops out they're cool?

Look, we're not going to agree on this. I'm a mix of Liberal and Conservative but I'm liberal in this view and that's how I feel. You're not going to get me to change my feelings or thoughts on this on an Internet forum.

A fetus is either a person or not. At what point does a not person fetus become a person fetus?

Any arbitrary point you wish to define as a person fetus is just as good as any other arbitrary point. It has nothing to do with religion. No one is trying to impose their religion on anybody here. No one is forcing you to go to church and sing hymns.

 

[jblomenberg16]

Just a reminder that today is "Sactity of Life Sunday." An estimated 50 MILLION children have been aborted in the last 40 years. Our government has now mandated employers (including religious organizations) provide coverage for abortions and other contraceptive devices.


This same government is now trying to put tighter controls on guns to "Protect the Children."


Makes logical sense to me.....

 

[Mad Macs]

A fetus is either a person or not. At what point does a not person fetus become a person fetus?

Any arbitrary point you wish to define as a person fetus is just as good as any other arbitrary point. It has nothing to do with religion. No one is trying to impose their religion on anybody here. No one is forcing you to go to church and sing hymns.

Agreed, it's all arbitrary, so stop trying to make it a law WITH a definitive line.

Considering that most people who support this ARE religious and I've been to churches where they specifically talk about personhood, what conclusions should I draw from this?

 

[jblomenberg16]

Agreed, it's all arbitrary, so stop trying to make it a law WITH a definitive line.

Considering that most people who support this ARE religious and I've been to churches where they specifically talk about personhood, what conclusions should I draw from this?

I think what he's trying to say is that yes, there is a religious portion of this, but that the definition of a living person can be made without religion, as can the moral decision on if it is ok to end a person's life, regardless at what stage that life is in, and who is making the decision.

 

[poptab]

Agreed, it's all arbitrary, so stop trying to make it a law WITH a definitive line.

Considering that most people who support this ARE religious and I've been to churches where they specifically talk about personhood, what conclusions should I draw from this?

If they rightly think that a fetus is a person and abortion is murder why should they not argue for its criminalization?

Convince them that a fetus is only a person at whatever arbitrary point you have decided.

 

[Mad Macs]

I think what he's trying to say is that yes, there is a religious portion of this, but that the definition of a living person can be made without religion, as can the moral decision on if it is ok to end a person's life, regardless at what stage that life is in, and who is making the decision.

I can totally see this, and thanks for being the voice of reason.

 

[Smokepole]

I think while we have been discussing the abortion issue itself, we have overlooked the elephant in the room - why elected officials avoid taking a hard stance on abortion while in office....

As far as politics goes, the abortion issue is about playing to the base of both major parties - and not about legislative change. It is one of the polarizing issues that is invoked during campaigns when political points are thought to be the outcome - and is then quickly forgotten once votes have been cast.

Unfortunately for Republicans that oppose legalized abortion, in modern times it does not seem to garner as much political favor, and in many instances harms their campaign - which is likely why we have heard less about abortion recently.

My feeling here is that the problem is in the way the conservatives frame their message (or rather allow the message to be framed for them) that is the crux of their problem. The allow the Libs to push the "War on Women" BS and then choke, sputter and backpedal from there. You can NEVER win taking a defensive position on anything. EVER. They don't have to take an "up in your face" type of approach. Half of he electorate is is Pro-Life and a certain undetermined portion of the rest is soft Pro-Choice. Many of those can be helped to see the other side if approached in the right way.

 

[Smokepole]

Aren't the two issues a dichotomy of human free will?
On one hand you're saying people have the right to protect themselves and carry weapons but someone cant choose to have an abortion because you know whats best.
I may not agree that everyone should own a gun but I will protect their right, and on the same side of the freedom coin I may not agree with abortion as an option to 99.9999% of early pregnancy but I do not agree with taking away that free will to choose. It's not my choice, it's not the governments choice, it's not my neighbors choice. Its the choice of the woman whose body it affects.

Why is murder (not abortion) Illegal?

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

Why is murder (not abortion) Illegal?

Because the citizenry overwhelmingly agreed that it was a crime of moral turpitude worthy of being outlawed, and without hesitation the criminalization of murder was carried over from previous civilizations.

 

[Ripper]

The DNA of an individual is created at conception and is a fact that all sides of the argument agree with. This is a fact that not one scientist will disagree with as they are the ones that have proven it!

DNA defines an individual and if conception creates DNA it also creates the life of an individual at the same time. DNA=Individual=Life

It's the DNA that scientist / professionals argued in court that have give so much power to identify and convict an individual. If they can use it to convict a person in the highest courts of law, and they admit that DNA is created AT conception, is this not a contradiction to the fact? A contradiction to the commonly used statement that its just a blob and has no life? Could you then entertain the argument that persons convicted soley on DNA evidence could be overturned if DNA does not identify an individual?

Just some thing to think about...

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

The DNA of an individual is created at conception and is a fact that all sides of the argument agree with. This is a fact that not one scientist will disagree with as they are the ones that have proven it!

DNA defines an individual and if conception creates DNA it also creates the life of an individual at the same time. DNA=Individual=Life

It's the DNA that scientist / professionals argued in court that have give so much power to identify and convict an individual. If they can use it to convict a person in the highest courts of law, and they admit that DNA is created AT conception, is this not a contradiction to the fact? A contradiction to the commonly used statement that its just a blob and has no life? Could you then entertain the argument that persons convicted soley on DNA evidence could be overturned if DNA does not identify an individual?

Just some thing to think about...

If I cut off my finger, it still contains my DNA.

Is a severed finger life?

If genetic material is stimulated to grow in a petri dish to create an ear, is that a human life?

 

[jblomenberg16]

If I cut off my finger, it still contains my DNA.

Is a severed finger life?

If genetic material is stimulated to grow in a petri dish to create an ear, is that a human life?

I think the argument is that the finger wouldn't have existed except for the creation of the unique individual that you are. Likewise, unless the ear was develped form a unique sperm and egg, but rather from existing tissue from an individual(s) than it is not a unique individual and hence not a unique human life.

 

[Big Ram]

Abortion is wrong that is a live human who is being killed. Yes they might look like a nugget but if it has a heartbeat it's murder