Remington 597 Won't Hold a Group

[BE Mike]

Here is a look at the crown:

The gun has not been cleaned since my outing Sunday. I can post additional images after cleaning.

It's hard to tell from the photo, but it appears that there may be some slight damage to the crown. So, did you try any premium ammo? I had a Ruger 10/22 that wouldn't shoot minute of squirrel. The trigger was terrible as well. I replaced the original hammer and sear with a Power kit. That fixed the trigger pull. The gun still wouldn't group and there was no obvious reason. Rather than sinking a bundle into a new barrel, I sold it to a guy who really wanted it. I disclosed the accuracy problem before the sale. I moved on to bolt actions and recently to a DPMS AP4, .22 upper conversion. No accuracy problems. Although there are many glowing reports of experiences with 10/22's, I've avoided them. I suppose, "one burnt, twice shy".

 

[1911ly]

It kind of looks like the crown has a pean mark in the rifling at the end. Hard to say. The crown is recessed and really hard to mess up. I see you are in Goshen? I am in South Bend. I would be glad to let you try one of my scopes.

 

[huntall50]

Go to RimfireCentral and follow the advice in the Remington sub forum, all of the advice is inexpensive and will help you to become knowledgeable about the detail working of the rifle. It will be a tack driver afterwards. I purchased one from a unhappy 597 owner, did the mods and it is now my goto squirrel rifle.

 

[red46239]

In this case, I promise you, they did.

If I'm a firearms manufacturer with a customer reporting accuracy problems I'm gonna do this:

1) I'm gonna load ammunition I know my rifle likes
2) I'm gonna mount the rifle in a vise
3) I'm gonna fire three rounds from that rifle to see if it produces a consistent acceptable grouping (by any standard that which my rifle produces is NOT)
4) If it does not I'm gonna find out why
5) If it does I'm gonna send it back to my customer and tell them what I did

But then, I believe in good customer service.

This may be exactly what Remington did, accept that they SAID that they polished the feed ramps to fix the problem.

I have to perform the actions recommended and then I will report my findings. If my troubleshooting produces unacceptable results for me I will happily sell this very nice looking rifle at half the retail cost to anyone who wants it.

Let me know if you decide to get rid of it. I'm interested for the right price.

 

[Span24]

Swapped scopes with my 10/22 and headed out to the range for a quick test. Setup at about 25' and got the scope zeroed as best I could.
Here are the results after getting the scope 'close':

As you can see the grouping is terrible! Each shot was very carefully sent following 20 warm-up rounds. What you see is simply where it put them.

What I've done:

Tried several different brands of ammunition
Tried three different scopes
Floated the barrel
Inspected the crown
Inspected the barrel for signs of lead
Complete dis-assembly, clean, inspection, and re-assembly
Sent the rifle in to Remington. They claim to have polished the feed ramp
Wasted about 250 rounds of various brands of .22 ammunition



Suggestions?

 

[Span24]

Go to RimfireCentral and follow the advice in the Remington sub forum, all of the advice is inexpensive and will help you to become knowledgeable about the detail working of the rifle. It will be a tack driver afterwards. I purchased one from a unhappy 597 owner, did the mods and it is now my goto squirrel rifle.

Wanna buy another?

 

[indyk]

I will buy it for 75$, since its messed up and all.

Give me a pm.

 

[SubUrbanCamo317]

I had a slightly similar accuracy issue with my 597. It wasn't as bad as yours but it grouped fairly low no matter what I did. I ended up buying a picatinney mount for the top of the receiver, what was happening was the scope rings would loosen when attached to the receiver. I put the rail mount on the receiver along with new high rise rings and it fixed my issue. May I suggest you try the same?

 

[Span24]

I will buy it for 75$, since its messed up and all.

Give me a pm.

HAHAHA! No Thanks! Its worth more to me if I part it out!

 

[huntall50]

$75 is not far off, I paid $125, hard case and staineless barrel.

 

[Span24]

$75 is not far off, I paid $125, hard case and staineless barrel.

$125 for stainless barrel and hard case! I'LL TAKE IT!

 

[Span24]

Actually, this has become an exercise and I intend to see it through. Until the more experienced members here and at RimfireCentral tell me its time to throw the barrel away I will keep searching for the problem and following their suggestions. I am learning alot along the way!

In the end I like the RealTree stock so will probably not let it go but will keep it to use on a proven action. The other parts can be piece mealed I suppose.

Just realized I haven't posted a picture of the rifle. Here ya go!

 

[lucky4034]

I shot one at my last Appleseed and didn't shoot Rifleman... a feat I had shot in all 3 of my previous Appleseeds. My scope was a vortex 2-7 and my rings were fine.

I'd shot rifleman with a M&P 15-22, a Ruger 10/22 and a Savage Mark ii bolt action .22....

I hate to blame the rifle, BUT... what I found is that I shot EXCELLENT groups in the fast fire stages and HORRIBLE groups in the slow fire prone stage. In past Appleseeds the prone slow-fire was easily my best stage. I even shot a perfect round once in Ossian last November on that stage to shoot a 236.

It took me a few AQTs and a little bit of thought to determine that it was the horrible trigger. On rapid fire stages my groups were more consistent as I didn't slow down enough to slowly engage the trigger which feels like it has a 7lb pull. But in the slow stages, when I slowed WAY down... that trigger pull weight gave me fits trying to squeeeeeeeeze off consistent shots. The heavy break created a ton of anticipation and I was pulling shots 3-4 inches off target.

Just a thought.... I'm sure with practice, I could master the trigger on that 597, but its a loner and I'm happy to get back to my 10/22 with home trigger job.

 

[Span24]

I shot one at my last Appleseed and didn't shoot Rifleman... a feat I had shot in all 3 of my previous Appleseeds. My scope was a vortex 2-7 and my rings were fine.

I'd shot rifleman with a M&P 15-22, a Ruger 10/22 and a Savage Mark ii bolt action .22....

I hate to blame the rifle, BUT... what I found is that I shot EXCELLENT groups in the fast fire stages and HORRIBLE groups in the slow fire prone stage. In past Appleseeds the prone slow-fire was easily my best stage. I even shot a perfect round once in Ossian last November on that stage to shoot a 236.

It took me a few AQTs and a little bit of thought to determine that it was the horrible trigger. On rapid fire stages my groups were more consistent as I didn't slow down enough to slowly engage the trigger which feels like it has a 7lb pull. But in the slow stages, when I slowed WAY down... that trigger pull weight gave me fits trying to squeeeeeeeeze off consistent shots. The heavy break created a ton of anticipation and I was pulling shots 3-4 inches off target.

Just a thought.... I'm sure with practice, I could master the trigger on that 597, but its a loner and I'm happy to get back to my 10/22 with home trigger job.

Thank you for the suggestion and your experience. Although few will argue that the 597 has a nice factory trigger I am EXTREMELY CONFIDENT that it is NOT the issue here.

 

[Span24]

Hmmmmm... Interesting article!

 

[huntall50]

Didnt read it all but sounds like he is detailing and expeciting ever rifle to be sniper 1000 yard accurate. The 597 will never be that type of accurate, but I have found that if I do my part its down(head shot) if its within 25yrds.
So Span what have you done to the internals of the action?

 

[Span24]

Didnt read it all but sounds like he is detailing and expeciting ever rifle to be sniper 1000 yard accurate. The 597 will never be that type of accurate, but I have found that if I do my part its down(head shot) if its within 25yrds.
So Span what have you done to the internals of the action?

I do thank you for your honesty in identifying that you did not bother to read the history.

I don't want to sound mean or defensive but if you had read the entire thread you would know what I have done and might also realize that there is no evidence at all to support the suggestion that I am 'detailing and expecting every rifle to be a sniper 1000 yard accurate'.

If you truly wish to provide constructive suggestions please have the courtesy to read the thread before characterizing my intentions or asking me to answer questions again.

Thanks!

 

[philagothon]

Consistency breeds accuracy.

I'm not the "be all and end all" expert of anything. But I've been an Appleseed instructor in training for going on 2 years now, and I work a fair number of shoots each year. I've seen many different 22 rifles on the line, and almost every one of them has been capable of shooting 1" groups at 25 meters (in freezing cold, blazing heat, wind & rain, and after hundreds of rounds without cleaning). I bought a 597 off a fellow INGOer last year and took it to an Appleseed within a week. I shot a Rifleman's score on my first try using bulk ammo with the cheap factory scope and no trigger job. It was sufficiently accurate with a variety of bulk ammo. But your rifle is not my rifle.

I've only ever had my hands on one rifle that had a pronounced preference in ammo; with anything but Mini-Mags it would create two distinct groups (1 group in the bullseye, and 1 group 2" high and right). With Mini-Mags that rifle would put every round in a 1" square. It is possible that your rifle has a strong ammo preference, but I'm guessing something else is going on.

You've tried several suggested fixes, including different scopes to no avail. Looking at your target I see a few possible problems:
1. Focusing on target instead or reticle: This is extremely common, especially among high magnification users. Your reticle should be crisp and clear, the target may be a bit fuzzy. You may also try backing off the magnification, anything over 4x is overkill for 25 yards.
2. Inconsistent sight alignment: Scopes are not a magic fix for sighting problems. You should not have a black ring around the sight picture; if you do, your scope is too far back and needs moved forward. Your cheek should be in the exact same position from one shot to the next.
3. Breath control: B.R.A.S.S. teaches you to fire in the middle of your breathing cycle. That is an inconsistent place to fire your shot and requires you to use muscle control for ambushing the target or moving the sights onto target. Try squeezing the trigger at the bottom of your breathing cycle, it is a more consistent place to fire the shot. In theory your sandbags should be taking care of movement caused by breathing, but your target shows some vertical stringing.
4. Trigger control: The 597 does not have a match grade trigger. It's heavy, long, and gritty. It takes discipline to shoot it well. Make sure your trigger hand has a firm grip on the rifle pulling it straight back into your shoulder. Make sure that your trigger finger is pulling straight back onto the trigger and not pushing or pulling it to one side or the other. B.R.A.S.S. says to fully release the trigger between each shot, Appleseed teaches to release the trigger just far enough for the sear to reset. We also teach you to follow-through and hold the trigger back for just a moment, an important step for people that have a habit of snatching or jerking the trigger.

My advice is to look at the things above and see if any of that helps. You might also try having a buddy who is a good shot give it a go. Finally, consider coming to the Appleseed in Rochester 9/21&22, I'm sure we'll be able to help you figure out what's going on with your rifle.

ETA: The article you linked is talking about accuracy of less than 1 MOA, that's less than 1/4" at 25 yards. Few factory 22s can do that; those that can are typically bolt action. If that is the level of accuracy you expect, you probably have the wrong rifle.

 

[Span24]

But your rifle is not my rifle.

Thank you! I am pleased to read that you at least give me the benefit of the doubt that the problem might actually be the rifle.

It is possible that your rifle has a strong ammo preference, but I'm guessing something else is going on.

I agree but intend to try some SV as has been suggested by several members on Rimfire Central.

1. Focusing on target instead or reticle: This is extremely common, especially among high magnification users. Your reticle should be crisp and clear, the target may be a bit fuzzy. You may also try backing off the magnification, anything over 4x is overkill for 25 yards.
2. Inconsistent sight alignment: Scopes are not a magic fix for sighting problems. You should not have a black ring around the sight picture; if you do, your scope is too far back and needs moved forward. Your cheek should be in the exact same position from one shot to the next.
3. Breath control: B.R.A.S.S. teaches you to fire in the middle of your breathing cycle. That is an inconsistent place to fire your shot and requires you to use muscle control for ambushing the target or moving the sights onto target. Try squeezing the trigger at the bottom of your breathing cycle, it is a more consistent place to fire the shot. In theory your sandbags should be taking care of movement caused by breathing, but your target shows some vertical stringing.
4. Trigger control: The 597 does not have a match grade trigger. It's heavy, long, and gritty. It takes discipline to shoot it well. Make sure your trigger hand has a firm grip on the rifle pulling it straight back into your shoulder. Make sure that your trigger finger is pulling straight back onto the trigger and not pushing or pulling it to one side or the other. B.R.A.S.S. says to fully release the trigger between each shot, Appleseed teaches to release the trigger just far enough for the sear to reset. We also teach you to follow-through and hold the trigger back for just a moment, an important step for people that have a habit of snatching or jerking the trigger.

I have certainly considered your recommendations (as I have ALL recommendations). However, I wish I had a dime for everyone who suggested that this was a problem with my shooting skills (no doubt the same position taken by Remington when I sent it in). Aside from shooting this rifle yourself you will just have to take it on faith that I have already managed to rule that variable out.

You might also try having a buddy who is a good shot give it a go.

Done that. They both told me to 'Sell that piece of junk'

ETA: The article you linked is talking about accuracy of less than 1 MOA, that's less than 1/4" at 25 yards. Few factory 22s can do that; those that can are typically bolt action.

The reference was not meant to apply to my problem. I simply found it in my research and thought it was interesting insight into accuracy in general.

If that is the level of accuracy you expect, you probably have the wrong rifle.

I expect 'reasonable accuracy' from this Remington 597 rimfire .22, nothing more. You will just have to trust that I am not getting that and therefore the reason I started this thread. In looking at the 25' range results would you not agree that the grouping depicted is 'unacceptable' from the described rifle?

Again, I do not wish to sound ungrateful, I appreciate your opinion. However, I would ask that you consider that there IS something 'not right' with the rifle and adjust your recommendations accordingly.

Thanks!

 

[Hookeye]

Bad rifles happen.

If you find the problem, and then fix it.............what have you got?

A 597.

They aren't expensive or rare, I wouldn't burn a lot of time and or money in trying to solve the problem.
Sure, learning is good...........but one has to be practical about the cost of such an education.