Reminders of How Unprepared Most People Really Are

[Hoosier8]

My sister and brother-in-law would probably fair well since they consider themselves pioneers in that they are very self reliant.

My only child daughter is a Marine.

My girlfriend on the other hand, would probably expire without her hair dryer.

 

[Scout]

In my house I have several scented candles around the house, as well as several oil lamps that are used just for power failures. As far as food, batteries, etc, I am one of the woefully unprepared.

 

[USMC_0311]

My sister and brother-in-law would probably fair well since they consider themselves pioneers in that they are very self reliant.

My only child daughter is a Marine.

My girlfriend on the other hand, would probably expire without her hair dryer.

No need to worry about your daughter.

 

[CPU13rother]

I'm in NW Indiana and the recent rash of tornado/flooding has reveled to me how unprepared people are. It was a good feeling to have my well pumping, my freezer freezing wile everyone was running around trying to buy generators that had sold out in stores. My wife always gave me a hard time about spending money on things she said we would never need. But has been silent on the subject since. We were also fortunate enough to be able to help some local people also but if SHTF we would certainly not be able to help many long term. After the storms I went and bought some barrel stoves to be able to heat with. I put one in my garage and have another one that I will install in the house if ever needed. They are not the most attractive things so no need to put it in the house unless I have to, but for a cost of $50.00 why not be prepared.

 

[rhino]

Do you have a manually operated pump for your well as a back-up?

 

[Hoosier8]

No need to worry about your daughter.

God bless ya!

 

[CPU13rother]

I have a Generator that cornets to my electric panel

 

[melensdad]

I have a Generator that cornets to my electric panel

Do you have it isolated with a cut-over switch so that it does not backfeed power to the utility line?

Many people have this feature, but many people don't. For those folks who don't have it, their set up may actually electrocute linemen who are working to repair the power lines

 

[hornadylnl]

I put a 220 female electric outlet on the side of my house that is tied into my well pump line to plug my generator into. My extension cord that I run from the generator has a male 220 plug on both ends. You have to make sure you plug it in both ends before you fire up the generator. Then I throw the main breaker on the panel. After that, I just have to watch for the neighbors to see if the power is back on. I got tired of manually wiring my generator in so I went this route. Simple and cheap.

 

[rhino]

Okay ... generator is good. But what about when you run out of fuel? Do you have a manually operated pump for your well?

 

[melensdad]

I put a 220 female electric outlet on the side of my house that is tied into my well pump line to plug my generator into. My extension cord that I run from the generator has a male 220 plug on both ends. You have to make sure you plug it in both ends before you fire up the generator. Then I throw the main breaker on the panel. . .

I'm not sure that is a legal set up? I'm not an electrician but I believe that you need a utility cut over switch that physically disconnects your home from the utility so that you avoid the possibility of backfeeding the system through the neutral wire.

I would like to hear from a licensed electrician who knows what is the legal set up for generator connections.

Okay ... generator is good. But what about when you run out of fuel? Do you have a manually operated pump for your well?

That is one reason why I have a TRI-Fuel generator. They cost only a very small premium more than a regular gas generator but allow you to run off Natural Gas, Propane or Gasoline. I have mine connected to my natural gas line. If I somehow lose N.G. all I have to do is disconnect it from the line and connect it to a propane tank or pour gasoline into the tank.

Typically I keep stabilized premium grade gasoline in the tank and start it up on gasoline because it starts easier on gasoline. After its warmed up I simply turn off the gasoline and switch over to natural gas by turning 2 cut-offs dials. It takes seconds. While it is on natural gas I have, for all practical purposes, an unlimited run time. We've had electrical power failures for up to 8 days, but I've never had a gas outage. So in my case a couple of propane tanks for the BBQ are just bonus fuel. If a major snow storm is heading for the area I make sure I have my 5 gallon gas cans filled. I keep 2 of those for the lawn tractor and small yard equipment so I fill them with premium fuel in the fall and put stabilizer in the fuel. If I did not have a Tri-Fuel set up then I would want 20 to 30 gallons of gasoline + a full generator tank of gas on hand before any major storm rolled through . . . and I'm not sure I'd actually want to keep that much gasoline in the garage in plastic containers . . . might want to seriously consider fuel storage issues at that point. Most generators of any reasonable size will burn about 5 gallons every 6 to 10 hours. So if you figure 8 hours is your average, 30 gallons of gas is only a couple days of fuel assuming you turn off your generator periodically for several hours at a time during the power outage.

If you think ahead just a little bit you can get through most outages and storm events with minimal inconvenience.

BTW, many engine companies make/sell propane/n.g. conversion kits for their small engines. So if you have a generator you may be able to convert it into a tri-fuel unit for a couple hundred bucks, or less.

ALSO, don't forget that generators get stolen. If yours is not mounted to the ground, then make sure to chain it in place so thieves don't toss it in the back of a pick up truck and drive away with it!

 

[hornadylnl]

Do you have a manually operated pump for your well as a back-up?

I was just thinking about this the other day. Do you know where I can find a hand operated well pump that will adapt to a 4" well casing? I'm wanting something that I can pull the well plug out and drop about 40' of pipe and the hand pump and use it for extended power outages.

I'm starting to get stuff now for preperations. I'm not interested in buying batteries, gas and stuff like that as they won't last very long if we have another depression type event. I think we will be seeing pioneer days with mass chaos and disorder before too long.

 

[hornadylnl]

I'm not sure that is a legal set up? I'm not an electrician but I believe that you need a utility cut over switch that physically disconnects your home from the utility so that you avoid the possibility of backfeeding the system through the neutral wire.

I would like to hear from a licensed electrician who knows what is the legal set up for generator connections.

That is one reason why I have a TRI-Fuel generator. They cost only a very small premium more than a regular gas generator but allow you to run off Natural Gas, Propane or Gasoline. I have mine connected to my natural gas line. If I somehow lose N.G. all I have to do is disconnect it from the line and connect it to a propane tank or pour gasoline into the tank.

Typically I keep stabilized premium grade gasoline in the tank and start it up on gasoline because it starts easier on gasoline. After its warmed up I simply turn off the gasoline and switch over to natural gas by turning 2 cut-offs dials. It takes seconds. While it is on natural gas I have, for all practical purposes, an unlimited run time. We've had electrical power failures for up to 8 days, but I've never had a gas outage. So in my case a couple of propane tanks for the BBQ are just bonus fuel. If a major snow storm is heading for the area I make sure I have my 5 gallon gas cans filled. I keep 2 of those for the lawn tractor and small yard equipment so I fill them with premium fuel in the fall and put stabilizer in the fuel. If I did not have a Tri-Fuel set up then I would want 20 to 30 gallons of gasoline + a full generator tank of gas on hand before any major storm rolled through . . . and I'm not sure I'd actually want to keep that much gasoline in the garage in plastic containers . . . might want to seriously consider fuel storage issues at that point. Most generators of any reasonable size will burn about 5 gallons every 6 to 10 hours. So if you figure 8 hours is your average, 30 gallons of gas is only a couple days of fuel assuming you turn off your generator periodically for several hours at a time during the power outage.

If you think ahead just a little bit you can get through most outages and storm events with minimal inconvenience.

BTW, many engine companies make/sell propane/n.g. conversion kits for their small engines. So if you have a generator you may be able to convert it into a tri-fuel unit for a couple hundred bucks, or less.

ALSO, don't forget that generators get stolen. If yours is not mounted to the ground, then make sure to chain it in place so thieves don't toss it in the back of a pick up truck and drive away with it!

It will take me about 30 minutes to remove this setup if and when I sell my house if it is an issue come inspection time. I always trip the main when I run it. I don't want to use my gas to power the neighbors house

 

[hornadylnl]

WP2D DC280 - Oasis Hand Water Pump - PumpBiz Pumps

I found this pump on the internet. Would be good to have one of these, a spike and some pipe on hand.

 

[melensdad]

It will take me about 30 minutes to remove this setup if and when I sell my house if it is an issue come inspection time. I always trip the main when I run it. I don't want to use my gas to power the neighbors house

Its not a matter of it working, and its not a matter of powering your neighbors house, its a safety issue. If I understand it correctly your generator may backfeed some power out of your panel -even if the main is tripped- via the neutral cable. The way I understand it, the generator can electrocute a lineman working to repair the downed power lines.

I'm not clear on that, but I've had several people tell me it is possible, one of them was a utility worker.

I have a utility cut over switch, so I know mine is legit, but I don't know if the story about flipping the main is true and it is a hazard or if it is a scare tactic.

 

[Soundslikejosh]

The "backfeed on the neutral" thing doesn't sound legit to me, but I was a low voltage electrician, not a lineman. I will look in my code book and see what it says.

 

[Cwood]

My code book is a little old it is the NEC 2002 edition.

There is several articles that are used for generators. I quote the most important Articles that I found.

445.3 Other Articles. Generators and their associated wiring
and equipment shall also comply with the applicable
provisions of Articles 695, 700, 701, 702, and 705.


445.18 Disconnecting Means Required for Generators.
Generators shall be equipped with a disconnect by means
of which the generator and all protective devices and control
apparatus are able to be disconnected entirely from the
circuits supplied by the generator except where:
(1) The driving means for the generator can be readily shut
down; and
(2) The generator is not arranged to operate in parallel with
another generator or other source of voltage.





705.20 Disconnecting Means, Sources. Means shall be
provided to disconnect all ungrounded conductors of an
electric power production source(s) from all other conductors.
705.21 Disconnecting Means, Equipment. Means shall
be provided to disconnect equipment, such as inverters or
transformers associated with a power production source
from all ungrounded conductors of all sources of supply.
Equipment intended to be operated and maintained as an
integral part of a power production source exceeding 1000
volts shall not be required to have a disconnecting means.
705.22 Disconnect Device. The disconnecting means for
ungrounded conductors shall consist of a manually or
power operable switch(es) or circuit breaker(s) with the
following features:
(1) Located where accessible
(2) Externally operable without exposing the operator to
contact with live parts and, if power operable, of a type
that can be opened by hand in the event of a power
supply failure
(3) Plainly indicating whether in the open or closed position
(4) Having ratings not less than the load to be carried and
the fault current to be interrupted
For disconnect equipment energized from both sides, a
marking shall be provided to indicate that all contacts of the
disconnect equipment may be energized.
FPN No. 1: In parallel generation systems, some equipment,
including knife blade switches and fuses, is likely to
be energized from both directions. See 240.40.
FPN No. 2: Interconnection to an off-premises primary
source could require a visibly verifiable disconnecting
device.

 

[melensdad]

My code book is a little old it is the NEC 2004 edition.

There is several articles that are used for generators. I quote the most important Articles that I found.

OK but for those of us who speak simple English, can you explain (slowly and with simple small words) what that really means as it relates to some of the discussions in this thread?

 

[Soundslikejosh]

The way I read that, a transfer switch is not strictly necessary. The wording says

"Means shall be provided to disconnect all ungrounded conductors of an electric power production source(s) from all other conductors"

The neutral is a grounded conductor, and thus seems to be exempt from needing a disconnect. I have an '05 code book but CWood beat me to it, and for now thats good enough.

I haven't studied this so I may be missing something, but I don't know that a transfer switch is required. Furthermore, I am not sure that all of them would break connection with the neutral.

Hope this helps, feel free to inquire further, hopefully we can help.

P.S. What you call a "utility cut-over switch" is what I am referring to as a transfer switch. Perhaps a sparky could set us both straight on the proper term.

 

[Cwood]

OK but for those of us who speak simple English, can you explain (slowly and with simple small words) what that really means as it relates to some of the discussions in this thread?

I am going to say that he needs to use a transfer switch to do it properly.

Now this is just my opinion. I personally have not done any generator installations and every inspector has his own ways he wants things done before he will sign off on a installation that is inspected.

BTW Melensdad, in Indiana there is no licensed electricans per say. Each town is responsible for the licensing of electrical contractors. The testing varies form town to town some require not testing to just a brief eletrical test. Coming from Ohio I find this to be very backward of what I am used to.