Quick question: Restaurant Scenario

[WC Deer Hunter]

I would politely get up and leave. Their will be no tip, their will be no payment because i was refused service. Being asked to leave is completely different from getting up and walking out without payment voluntarily after consuming your meal. That would constitute theft, leaving after being asked to would not.

i would then make sure that I told everyone I could about being refused service and would never return to their establishment.

 

[Indy317]

In this situation, I think it would depend on where you were at in your meal. If you haven't tossed your napkin on the table, or pushed your plate back, or had the server remove your plates and you're just talking, then I would say that you're still eating. As such, if told to leave by an agent, one would be wise to leave the property ASAP. Not doing so could invite a trespass charge. Now, if you were done with your meal, I could see the person saying "Sir/Mama, we don't allow firearms on our property. If you would please pay your bill now and leave the property we would appreciate it." I would say one had best pay. You were given the option, so any sort of trespass charge for being ordered to just leave wouldn't be an issue.

To me, and only me, anyone still eating ordered to leave immediately wouldn't be in violation of an sort of theft charge. Even if told to pay, this to me would be a civil matter. The patron is there to not only eat, but to take the time they want to eat, on the property as well. Any sort of manager claiming theft saying "Well I told him they could take their food home with them." just wouldn't cut it in my opinion.

 

[Bill of Rights]

In this situation, I think it would depend on where you were at in your meal. If you haven't tossed your napkin on the table, or pushed your plate back, or had the server remove your plates and you're just talking, then I would say that you're still eating. As such, if told to leave by an agent, one would be wise to leave the property ASAP. Not doing so could invite a trespass charge. Now, if you were done with your meal, I could see the person saying "Sir/Mama, we don't allow firearms on our property. If you would please pay your bill now and leave the property we would appreciate it." I would say one had best pay. You were given the option, so any sort of trespass charge for being ordered to just leave wouldn't be an issue.

To me, and only me, anyone still eating ordered to leave immediately wouldn't be in violation of an sort of theft charge. Even if told to pay, this to me would be a civil matter. The patron is there to not only eat, but to take the time they want to eat, on the property as well. Any sort of manager claiming theft saying "Well I told him they could take their food home with them." just wouldn't cut it in my opinion.

OK, fair enough, apparently the previous discussion was incomplete.

As an aside.... That's cold, Indy... The manager kicked out his own Mama???



Blessings,
Bill

 

[Pale Rider]

I would politely get up and leave. Their will be no tip, their will be no payment because i was refused service. Being asked to leave is completely different from getting up and walking out without payment voluntarily after consuming your meal. That would constitute theft, leaving after being asked to would not.

i would then make sure that I told everyone I could about being refused service and would never return to their establishment.

If the food had made it to my table I'd pay the bill and probably tip. Why punish a server for the policy of the company? And walking out without payment in my personal book is an ethics violation. I think as gun owners/carriers there is a fine line we need to walk between being good examples of mature, competent individuals who choose to carry. And the kinda of folks who push themselves and their opinions / beliefs on others. Legal right or not, perception is reality. I've always figured you catch more flys with honey....

 

[Caleb]

Interesting conversation...any other inputs?

 

[Sylvain]

If the food had made it to my table I'd pay the bill and probably tip. Why punish a server for the policy of the company? And walking out without payment in my personal book is an ethics violation. I think as gun owners/carriers there is a fine line we need to walk between being good examples of mature, competent individuals who choose to carry. And the kinda of folks who push themselves and their opinions / beliefs on others. Legal right or not, perception is reality. I've always figured you catch more flys with honey....

It's not like you are walking out because you dont want to pay, you are asked to leave, therefore they deny you service.
If they tell you to to leave after your order that's their problem in my opinion, they just wasted food by doing so, and lost money.
But for me being denied service before I even order or after they delivered my food (no mater if I ate it or not) is the same thing.
No service = no money.
If they want me to pay then I will stay, finish my food, pay and leave.
If they want me to leave then I will leave, without paying.
They cant just have both otherwise they would ask every custumer to pay and leave once they order and charge them for the food they will not get.
Either they want me in they restaurant and they will have my money OR they want me out and my money will go out with me.

I dont see any ethic problem with that.

 

[Pale Rider]

It's not like you are walking out because you dont want to pay, you are asked to leave, therefore they deny you service.
If they tell you to to leave after your order that's their problem in my opinion, they just wasted food by doing so, and lost money.
But for me being denied service before I even order or after they delivered my food (no mater if I ate it or not) is the same thing.
No service = no money.
If they want me to pay then I will stay, finish my food, pay and leave.
If they want me to leave then I will leave, without paying.
They cant just have both otherwise they would ask every custumer to pay and leave once they order and charge them for the food they will not get.
Either they want me in they restaurant and they will have my money OR they want me out and my money will go out with me.

I dont see any ethic problem with that.

You make a good point, but I guess it just comes down to timing for me. I might ask if they wanted me to pay, and comply with their request if the food made it to the table, but if it never made it out of the kitchen I wouldn't have an issue not paying. If it made it to the table I would most likely box it up and take it home, no use wasting it just to make a point.

 

[Sylvain]

You make a good point, but I guess it just comes down to timing for me. I might ask if they wanted me to pay, and comply with their request if the food made it to the table, but if it never made it out of the kitchen I wouldn't have an issue not paying. If it made it to the table I would most likely box it up and take it home, no use wasting it just to make a point.

It's not just to make a point.If im eating at a restaurant it's to eat inside the restaurant and to have service.It's not just paying for the food, otherwise I would go to a take-away place and eat at home.
So im not going to pay and take it home because I would be also paying for the service which I would not get.
I either pay and eat it at my table like any other custumer, or I will leave and leave the food behind.
Since I dont take the food I dont have to pay for it.
If they dont want the food to go to waste they can box it and give it to me for free, in that case I would take it, there is no point wasting it like you said.
But if they want me to pay I would sit down and eat then pay.

 

[bwframe]

Interesting conversation...any other inputs?

Yes. It's not realistic to think that you would be asked to leave. You would be asked to relocate your weapon. The most obvious place for suggestion would be your vehicle.

Nearly all restaurant managers could care less whether you carry or not. Most of them do. What they do have to do is respond to complaints. Other patrons complaining about your carry is what might get you the attention.

 

[Sylvain]

Yes. It's not realistic to think that you would be asked to leave. You would be asked to relocate your weapon. The most obvious place for suggestion would be your vehicle.

Nearly all restaurant managers could care less whether you carry or not. Most of them do. What they do have to do is respond to complaints. Other patrons complaining about your carry is what might get you the attention.

But how many people will agree to disarm in order to finish their meal?
For many people being asked to relocate your weapon and being asked to leave is the same thing.
If im not welcome with my gun then im not welcome at all.
Simple as that.
Not to mention that the sefest place for my gun is on my person.
It could be stolen in my car and of course if something happens in the restaurant I would have to take the threat down with a knife because I wont have my gun on me.

 

[IN_Sheepdog]

take the offending OC or exposed CC and put it back in the car... (knowing you still have a KELTEC-P3-AT in your back pocket...)

Yes, I know if that was somehow discovered that would be criminal trespass, but is the manager going to go through your pockets also...? Not unarmed, just Less armed...

And that would be the LAST time I ever went to that restaurant...period....
If I was forced to leave, I would probably not pay, because of the denial of service... 99% of restaurants are not going to make an issue out of it... Not that I couldnt afford the meal whether I ate it or not.... its the principle...

Wait staff the reporter $0.00

Wait staff NOT.... Probably a good ten or twenty bucks and tell them it is on the manager.!! (Yeah, and like Guy said.... "If she's cute... well..."

 

[Guardsman89]

I understand this is a conversation based on a hypothetical situation, but there is zero percent chance that anyone will ever inadvertently see my CC and I never OC. So, I will never be asked to leave a store or restaurant or any other public place for this reason. If they ever start asking if I have a gun (like at gun shows and gun shops, which I find to be exceedingly ironic), I will have decisions to make.

 

[bwframe]

But how many people will agree to disarm in order to finish their meal?
For many people being asked to relocate your weapon and being asked to leave is the same thing.
If im not welcome with my gun then im not welcome at all.
Simple as that.
Not to mention that the sefest place for my gun is on my person.
It could be stolen in my car and of course if something happens in the restaurant I would have to take the threat down with a knife because I wont have my gun on me.

It's all about how to keep the most business coming back through the restaurant's door. If you are drawing more complaints than the business you generate then it's an issue. Better yet, if you can be convinced to cover up, everyone wins.

 

[lovemachine]

My question is, WHEN is the order of food yours? Is the plate of food officially yours once you order? When the plate of food is on your table? Or when you take the first bite?

Once the food is yours, aren't you required to pay for it?

 

[Hoosierdood]

Yes. It's not realistic to think that you would be asked to leave. You would be asked to relocate your weapon. The most obvious place for suggestion would be your vehicle.

Nearly all restaurant managers could care less whether you carry or not. Most of them do. What they do have to do is respond to complaints. Other patrons complaining about your carry is what might get you the attention.

If asked to take my gun to my vehicle, I will politely say "I'm sorry, but I can't do that." If further questioned why, I will inform the manager that obviously at least one person has seen my gun (whoever complained) and that others may see it as well. If they see me leave with my gun and come back without it, they will know it is in my vehicle. I don't know the criminal background of every patron, and can't be sure that one might not break into my vehicle to take my gun. The last thing we need is more illegal guns on the street.

After that, the only options are for the manager to drop it completely, or to ask me to leave. But I will NOT take my gun back to the car.

 

[Mr. Habib]

My question is, WHEN is the order of food yours? Is the plate of food officially yours once you order? When the plate of food is on your table? Or when you take the first bite?

Once the food is yours, aren't you required to pay for it?

It doesn't matter. You are paying for the food, service, and atmosphere. You are not required to pay for something that you did not receive. Let me ask this. Say that you went there to eat and watch a sporting event on their big screen and you're ask to leave. If you box up the food a take it with you are you getting what you went there intending to pay for? What if you are going somewhere between the restaurant and home, lets say a movie. By the time you get home the food is no good. Should you be forced to pay for food that you cannot eat?

 

[NavyVet]

Let me preface with IANAL....

I would suspect that since you ordered your meal from a menu (with a price list), that once that meal is delivered to your table, you would legally owe for it. That does not take into account a terrible meal (where the quality of the product didn't match the menu description). If they had a no weapons sign posted, I would think you owe it without question.

I have also never been to a restaurant and ordered take-out and received a discount for the unused 'ambience and atmosphere'. So the price is impied to be for the meal.

The reality is that most places will not push making you pay... If they are personally (owner or staff) concerned about the gun, they will just be happy to see you go. If it is a complaint from a customer they generally assume that most of the customers are anti-gun (thanks to our left-wing media) and you will have the least impact on their business.

My goal is always to make sure they are wrong on the last assumption. Between INGO and my other interactions, I make it my goal to make them pay (financially) for their decision long after I have left.

If asked to pay, I will (assuming I have received the meal and/or can take it with me). If it has not been delivered yet, then it it is not my problem.

I assume you can tweak the scenario to get it to fly legally any way you want, but basically I try to live at peace with those around me and try to do the right thing. Gun owners get a bad enough rap without 'shooting ourselves in the foot' by making a public stink in front of a bunch of folks that don't really care (and possibly reinforcing their original thoughts about us).

We can have the greatest impact financially.

--- NavyVet

 

[Bmrdude]

Whatever the situation, always sit facing the front door and take note of the "emergency" exits! Explain to wife and family that if I say "get down" or "head to the exit" they don't question you, and act accordingly.

 

[lovemachine]

It doesn't matter. You are paying for the food, service, and atmosphere. You are not required to pay for something that you did not receive. Let me ask this. Say that you went there to eat and watch a sporting event on their big screen and you're ask to leave. If you box up the food a take it with you are you getting what you went there intending to pay for? What if you are going somewhere between the restaurant and home, lets say a movie. By the time you get home the food is no good. Should you be forced to pay for food that you cannot eat?

Good point.

 

[Cheeseburger]

Let's take it a set further. If you saw someone in the restaurant being asked to leave because of a firearm, would you also quietly get up, pay your bill and leave telling the manager that they must not want your business either?

Sunday while eating my breakfast at a local diner the gentleman at the next table was carrying more open than concealed. Sweatshirt covered the grips but that was about it. Sat in the middle of the diner so it was plain to see. It made me ponder who else was carrying in the restaurant.

My point is, if your being asked to leave, your probably not the only person in the room carrying a gun. If 10-20% of their business walked out the door with you, I think it would send a loud message.