Question on Semi-auto accuracy and possible improvements

[Woobie]

This is starting to sound expensive. I'm still saving up for my next 1911.

A recrown isn't actually that expensive. It can resurrect the accuracy of an older, well used rifle. But I was just throwing some food for thought out. Your scope is your first item to look at.

 

[Woobie]

I would think more like understabilizing, especially when shooting the heavy 190 grain bullet he mentions having loaded.
I'd start at 150 or 165 grains.

He said he was getting better (still bad) groups with the 190's. Things got worse when he went to a lighter bullet. This gives me the impression that he likely has a faster twist.

 

[6mm Shoot]

To check your scope you can put it on one of your other rifles and put that rifles scope on the BAR and see how that goes. Shoot both rifles and you will know if the scope is bad or not and if the problem with the BAR was the scope.

It is my understanding that the M1 and BAR used 150 gr FMJ in the second world war. So the BAR should be set up for the 150 gr bullet.

 

[oldpink]

According to this site GS CUSTOM BULLETS - Twist Rate by Manufacturer the Browning BAR in .30-06 does indeed have a 1:10 twist rate.
My own Ruger M77 also has a 1:10 twist rate, and I get 1" groups of five @ 100 yards, one with the 180 grain Sierra Pro-Hunter spitzer and the other with the 165 grain Barnes X-Bullet, neither of which is exactly a heavyweight.
Just to see how far I could take it, years ago I even loaded up some 200 grain Nosler Partition spitzers and 220 grain Hornady round noses, and I wasn't able to keep them inside 2" at the same range.
That is strictly anecdotal and not exactly scientific, but it doesn't demonstrate (at least from my rifle) that heavy bullets do better with my twist rate.
btw...I'm far from an expert on the technical details of gun operation, but I was just thinking that a badly fouled gas piston, as the OP mentioned he discovered, could well cause (at least IMNSHO) an issue because the bolt could unlock inconsistently (sooner, later, quicker, slower, etc.), which could in turn change the ballistics and barrel harmonics enough to adversely affect accuracy.
A high quality scope is certainly called for, especially on such a fine rifle, but it would be interesting to see what kind of groups it would get now that it's been thoroughly cleaned before the new glass is mounted.

 

[oldpink]

To check your scope you can put it on one of your other rifles and put that rifles scope on the BAR and see how that goes. Shoot both rifles and you will know if the scope is bad or not and if the problem with the BAR was the scope.

It is my understanding that the M1 and BAR used 150 gr FMJ in the second world war. So the BAR should be set up for the 150 gr bullet.

This is the sporting BAR, not the military version, but yes, 150 grains is the traditional bullet weight for .30-06.

 

[17 squirrel]

Take a peek at this link and read about some forearm screw issues.


Browning BAR Accuracy? - The Firing Line Forums

 

[Mark 1911]

Take a peek at this link and read about some forearm screw issues.


Browning BAR Accuracy? - The Firing Line Forums

Very interesting link, the rifle they are discussing is the same one I have, Belgium made Grade II BAR in 30-06 made in 1971. As I just completed a total disassemble/reassemble, I am familiar with the forearm nut they are talking about. But at least on mine, that nut does not adjust the clearance of the forearm from the barrel, at least as far as I can tell. There is a steel sleeve that lines the hole in the bottom of the forearm that the screw passes through. The screw threads through the nut and then into a threaded hole in the bottom of the gas cylinder. The nut puts pressure on the steel sleeve in the forearm and holds the sleeve tight to the bottom of the gas cylinder. As as far as I can tell, there is no adjustment, not that would leave the thickness of three business cards that they discuss in the link. If that nut is loosened so that the forearm is away from the barrel, then the forearm is loose, there is nothing holding it securely until that forearm nut is bottomed out against the steel sleeve. So the clearance seems to be fixed and is determined by length of the steel sleeve.

I am online at the moment looking at a few different scopes. Nikons, Leupolds, and Vortex. Cabela's has a sale on some Nikon Monarch 3's, which I know to be great scopes as I have one on my TC muzzleloader. I am partial to Talley rings and bases, so will see if they make one for the BAR.

 

[Mark 1911]

According to this site GS CUSTOM BULLETS - Twist Rate by Manufacturer the Browning BAR in .30-06 does indeed have a 1:10 twist rate.
My own Ruger M77 also has a 1:10 twist rate, and I get 1" groups of five @ 100 yards, one with the 180 grain Sierra Pro-Hunter spitzer and the other with the 165 grain Barnes X-Bullet, neither of which is exactly a heavyweight.
Just to see how far I could take it, years ago I even loaded up some 200 grain Nosler Partition spitzers and 220 grain Hornady round noses, and I wasn't able to keep them inside 2" at the same range.
That is strictly anecdotal and not exactly scientific, but it doesn't demonstrate (at least from my rifle) that heavy bullets do better with my twist rate.
btw...I'm far from an expert on the technical details of gun operation, but I was just thinking that a badly fouled gas piston, as the OP mentioned he discovered, could well cause (at least IMNSHO) an issue because the bolt could unlock inconsistently (sooner, later, quicker, slower, etc.), which could in turn change the ballistics and barrel harmonics enough to adversely affect accuracy.
A high quality scope is certainly called for, especially on such a fine rifle, but it would be interesting to see what kind of groups it would get now that it's been thoroughly cleaned before the new glass is mounted.

I've had excellent results with 165 grain through my M1 Garand, very accurate at 100 yards even with open sights. I too like the heavier bullets at the range, they have higher ballistic coefficients which equate to tighter groups. That's what I was using in my bolt actions, 190 grain specifically, until I found out I had an opportunity to hunt some land in Wisconsin. If I were just shooting at the range, I would probably stick with the heavier bullets, 180 to 200. But the 165s are also very straight shooters. I just dialed in two of my bolt actions with 165 and they are both shooting under 1 inch at 100 yards with 165s. I don't have much experience with rifle hunting, but I understand that most guys shooting deer with 30-06 are using 150 or 165. I'm thinking that's going to take them down with no trouble whatsoever, and maybe with a little less damage than the heavier bullets.

 

[Mark 1911]

A recrown isn't actually that expensive. It can resurrect the accuracy of an older, well used rifle. But I was just throwing some food for thought out. Your scope is your first item to look at.

I may give more serious consideration to a re-crown if the new scope doesn't cure the problem. I've read that a lot of Browming BARs that shoot poor do it because of crown issues, and the crown issues are caused by cleaning rods being passed through the muzzle end of the barrel instead of the breech because the breech isn't accessible without removing the bolt, a somewhat involved process on the older Brownings. Visually, I can't see any marks, scratches, pitting, or other imperfections in the crown. It's certainly an option for the future, and we have a superb gunsmith here on INGO in AllenM, so that is always an option. I'll have to go through a process of elimination, one piece at a time. Just from the way it was acting at the range, I have a hunch the scope is not holding true. The rifle also has factory open sights, so I can check the grouping just using the open sights and see what happens.

 

[17 squirrel]

I thought the read was interesting, it was a link that my brother wanted me to forward to you.

I'll let him know,....Thanks

 

[Woobie]

I may give more serious consideration to a re-crown if the new scope doesn't cure the problem. I've read that a lot of Browming BARs that shoot poor do it because of crown issues, and the crown issues are caused by cleaning rods being passed through the muzzle end of the barrel instead of the breech because the breech isn't accessible without removing the bolt, a somewhat involved process on the older Brownings. Visually, I can't see any marks, scratches, pitting, or other imperfections in the crown. It's certainly an option for the future, and we have a superb gunsmith here on INGO in AllenM, so that is always an option. I'll have to go through a process of elimination, one piece at a time. Just from the way it was acting at the range, I have a hunch the scope is not holding true. The rifle also has factory open sights, so I can check the grouping just using the open sights and see what happens.

Sounds like a great plan. I don't have personal experience with AllenM, but his reputation on here is unimpeachable. If I needed something done I felt like I couldn't do, I wouldn't hesitate to take it to him.

 

[tradertator]

I definitely think it has to do with the glass. I've bought a lot of rifles over the years that guys claimed they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with. Swap the junk glass out with something different, and voilla, the rifle is magically fixed.

Cleaning out the internals and barrel will also help.

 

[Mark 1911]

I definitely think it has to do with the glass. I've bought a lot of rifles over the years that guys claimed they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with. Swap the junk glass out with something different, and voilla, the rifle is magically fixed.

Cleaning out the internals and barrel will also help.

I've got the cleaning part done and it was very much in need of a thorough cleaning on the inside. As far as the glass goes, I am working on that part and have ordered a Zeiss Conquest HD5 3-15x50 with the Z600 reticle, which is their bullet drop compensating reticle. I purchased Talley bases and rings. I am looking forward to mounting that bad boy and dialing it in at the range.

 

[oldpink]

I've got the cleaning part done and it was very much in need of a thorough cleaning on the inside. As far as the glass goes, I am working on that part and have ordered a Zeiss Conquest HD5 3-15x50 with the Z600 reticle, which is their bullet drop compensating reticle. I purchased Talley bases and rings. I am looking forward to mounting that bad boy and dialing it in at the range.

There you go!
That's just the sort of glass and mounting hardware for such a fine rifle.
Can't wait to see if you get positive results.
If you don't, it certainly won't be the fault of your sighting system.

 

[Mark 1911]

According to this site GS CUSTOM BULLETS - Twist Rate by Manufacturer the Browning BAR in .30-06 does indeed have a 1:10 twist rate.
My own Ruger M77 also has a 1:10 twist rate, and I get 1" groups of five @ 100 yards, one with the 180 grain Sierra Pro-Hunter spitzer and the other with the 165 grain Barnes X-Bullet, neither of which is exactly a heavyweight.
Just to see how far I could take it, years ago I even loaded up some 200 grain Nosler Partition spitzers and 220 grain Hornady round noses, and I wasn't able to keep them inside 2" at the same range.
That is strictly anecdotal and not exactly scientific, but it doesn't demonstrate (at least from my rifle) that heavy bullets do better with my twist rate.
btw...I'm far from an expert on the technical details of gun operation, but I was just thinking that a badly fouled gas piston, as the OP mentioned he discovered, could well cause (at least IMNSHO) an issue because the bolt could unlock inconsistently (sooner, later, quicker, slower, etc.), which could in turn change the ballistics and barrel harmonics enough to adversely affect accuracy.
A high quality scope is certainly called for, especially on such a fine rifle, but it would be interesting to see what kind of groups it would get now that it's been thoroughly cleaned before the new glass is mounted.

I did a little reading up on this and it appears 1 in 10 twist is the norm for 30-06. Even my newer Remy 700 and my 1990 vintage Weatherby Mark V are also 1 in 10. I've read quite a few people on other forums as well say the 180 is a top performer in 30-06 especially for long range shots where lighter bullets can start to tumble. I bought some 165s and some 180s to try at the range. My past experience with my Weatherby is that is does very well with some Nosler Partition 190s I worked up for it.

I have the new scope mounted and it's ready for some range action. I'll post some pics with the new scope mounted soon.

 

[oldpink]

I did a little reading up on this and it appears 1 in 10 twist is the norm for 30-06. Even my newer Remy 700 and my 1990 vintage Weatherby Mark V are also 1 in 10. I've read quite a few people on other forums as well say the 180 is a top performer in 30-06 especially for long range shots where lighter bullets can start to tumble. I bought some 165s and some 180s to try at the range. My past experience with my Weatherby is that is does very well with some Nosler Partition 190s I worked up for it.

I have the new scope mounted and it's ready for some range action. I'll post some pics with the new scope mounted soon.

Awesome!
Please, give us a full report once that Belgian beauty has gotten a second chance at the range.

 

[Mark 1911]

Ok, here's a pictorial of the transition.

Here's the Bushnell scope and mounts that came with the rifle:

Here's a pic with the old scope removed and the Talley mounts installed. Note that I also removed the old leather sling and replaced it with a new heavy duty nylon web sling. The leather slings are pretty, but the nylon slings IMHO are more functional, easier and quicker to adjust, thus more practical for hunting:

Here's a few with the new scope. At first I purchased medium height rings, but the large 50mm objective lens would not clear the rear sight. So I purchased high rings, and removed the rear sight from the dovetail, but left the dovetail installed in the barrel. Eventually I may take it in to AllenM and let him remove the dovetail and install a blank to make it look prettier.

 

[451_Detonics]

My current set up on my 375/338 BAR Safari is steel Weaver ring, Weaver bases, and a Leupold 1.75-6 scope. This setup has always shot very close to MOA for me and even with the heavy cartridge has never shown any signs of shifting.

 

[Mark 1911]

My current set up on my 375/338 BAR Safari is steel Weaver ring, Weaver bases, and a Leupold 1.75-6 scope. This setup has always shot very close to MOA for me and even with the heavy cartridge has never shown any signs of shifting.

View attachment 41971

That's encouraging. I'm looking forward to shooting my "new" rig and looking forward to getting similar results to yours. Beautiful rifle by the way.

 

[451_Detonics]

Dad and I had that rifle built for one specific competition each year, the Ernest Hemingway Memorial Shoot. Minimum caliber was .375 or 9.3mm, entry fee was $3.00 and a bottle of wine and coat and tie were required.