Question about Buying a gun

[Aaron1776]

Honestly if some idiot behind the counter told me I had to pay before the NICS check, I would tell him where he could stick his firearm.......

 

[Manatee]

I can see a situation where you are doing a transfer for an internet sale, there is a "denial", and then....?

Dealer is in the middle of a bad transaction and it will be a pia.

 

[Bennettjh]

My LGS runs the check first. Yesterday when I was there I payed for the gun while they called me in. I had purchased several times from them and never delay or deny so I felt it was ok to pay before the check was completed (it was a proceed). However, I have brought family members there and they wait until the check is through to take the money. They never had been there so the store didn't know if they would proceed or deny them. They never REQUIRED me too pay before the check though. I chose too and I feel they would give my money back if I would've been denied.

Thanks again to Bite the Bullet! Great people and great rifle! They have a nicely ran shop and their practices are always spot on. Being REQUIRED to pay before the check seems a little odd IMHO.

 

[XDLover]

I've never had money collected before my background screen. I wouldn't pay before that period. While I understand its their time to call it in, its not going to cost me a dime up front, no matter how bad I might want what they have.

 

[Skywired]

And I thought I'd seen and heard it all. In all my many years of gun buying, at least since the start of the NICS check, in OH, KY, and IN., at chain stores and large and small LGS, I have never, ever heard or seen anything like the OP suggests.

I can't think of ANY business owner, large or small, that would want to risk ANY un-necessary paperwork due to a failed NICS check. Just boggles my mind.

 

[Manatee]

what unnecessary paperwork in a "failed" check?

 

[Mitchell0481]

I know some of the shops near Gary do that. Keeps a lot of people from just "trying" to purchase.

 

[PGRChaplain]

Check first, Pay Last. The only cost involved is employee time to do the call in.

 

[wpmason]

Every purchase I've made has been background check first, then a pitch to buy ammo/accessories, then the cash register.

 

[bthomas]

I bought a px4 storm yesterday at my lgs. They did NCIS then I went home and got the cash to pay for the gun.

 

[TJSaltdog]

There is one shop here that says you have to pay first then they send in the paper work. There is a sign on the wall behind the counter that says if you are denied then you will not get all your money back. Im not worried about being denied because I have never been, Im just asking if this is legal or not since I seen the sign.

 

[Dirtebiker]

There is one shop here that says you have to pay first then they send in the paper work. There is a sign on the wall behind the counter that says if you are denied then you will not get all your money back. Im not worried about being denied because I have never been, Im just asking if this is legal or not since I seen the sign.

Of course it's legal. Why wouldn't it be? If you don't like their rules, don't buy there.

 

[Dirtebiker]

Having the customer pay before the NICS check, helps keep down the number of those who know (or think) they are inelligble, hoping to get by somehow, and wasting the FFL's time.

I would seriously doubt this occurs. Main reason is that any "DENIED" application to the NICS is kept on record forever - (all pass or delayed must be destroyed in a few days), It is very possible that anyone that was denied with a felony would receive a visit from the ATF - especially if they applied more than once!
Maybe Bradis or some other dealer will chime in on this thread - I'm quite sure they could shed some light on these questions!

I know some of the shops near Gary do that. Keeps a lot of people from just "trying" to purchase.

Larry, it DOES happen! If felons and others that aren't legal to own, didn't try, we wouldn't need the NICS at all! Right?

 

[KoopaKGB]

And I thought I'd seen and heard it all. In all my many years of gun buying, at least since the start of the NICS check, in OH, KY, and IN., at chain stores and large and small LGS, I have never, ever heard or seen anything like the OP suggests.

I can't think of ANY business owner, large or small, that would want to risk ANY un-necessary paperwork due to a failed NICS check. Just boggles my mind.

Me too, thats a new one.
Bought guns on form 4473's in Washington, North Carolina, Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, LGS's, Dick's, hole in the wall FFL shops running in somebody's garage, online, in big cities, small towns, gunshows, etc not one time have I head of what the op is talking about.

There is one shop here that says you have to pay first then they send in the paper work. There is a sign on the wall behind the counter that says if you are denied then you will not get all your money back. Im not worried about being denied because I have never been, Im just asking if this is legal or not since I seen the sign.

I'd like to see the sign/speak with the owner about that. I've never heard of an FFL doing it that way. EVER.

 

[LarryC]

Normally, a full-service shop won't collect fees before the NICS check. However, the record-keeping is still required on a denial and there is time involved in the phone call/computer check. So, the customer actually received some "value". Many of us don't charge separately for background checks. Some establish a fee as part of the sale and it is non-refundable. You would expect that the "all-in" price of the dealer to be competitive however he splits it up.

As to the ATF/FBI following up on denials...you haven't been following the press, have you?

LOL, I get your point - but in reality if I were operating a GS (or other retail establishment) I would consider the phone call part of my overhead - yes overhead does have to be paid and is (or should be part of the selling price of the firearm).

However, I have worked in and at one time ran a small business (many - many years ago). I would consider the cost involved in a "call" incidental, just as much as an advertizing sign or turning the lights on etc.

I would not separate it as "the cost" associated with a single sale, unless this is a repeated drain on your resources. IE: you spend a 1/2 hour a day on the phone getting "denials". I spent a lot of time, when in retail on the phone looking for sales leads, also quoting jobs - sure didn't figure on recouping it from each person.

 

[LarryC]

Larry, it DOES happen! If felons and others that aren't legal to own, didn't try, we wouldn't need the NICS at all! Right?

If the ATF does their job, -(I know they never really have), anyone "denied" is recorded and that record is kept forever (according to the ATF rule book). The presumption is that either the ATF or local LEO's will be informed and the person investigated to see if they possess a firearm illegally. Obviously this is not being done as it should be. But otherwise why would all records of the NCIS approved checks be required to be destroyed and the "denied" kept on file forever? As far as "needing" the NCIS, I really don't think we do, I have known a few BG's and see the news, I honestly don't believe any criminal that wants a firearm has any trouble at all acquiring one. They don't work within the law like we do - do they?

 

[Dirtebiker]

If the ATF does their job, -(I know they never really have), anyone "denied" is recorded and that record is kept forever (according to the ATF rule book). The presumption is that either the ATF or local LEO's will be informed and the person investigated to see if they possess a firearm illegally. Obviously this is not being done as it should be. But otherwise why would all records of the NCIS approved checks be required to be destroyed and the "denied" kept on file forever? As far as "needing" the NCIS, I really don't think we do, I have known a few BG's and see the news, I honestly don't believe any criminal that wants a firearm has any trouble at all acquiring one. They don't work within the law like we do - do they?

Where do you get the "presumption" that anyone is investigated?
And if they were, how would the ATF or local leo determine if someone illegally owns anything?
I agree that bg's don't have any problem getting anything they want. But some DO try to buy through FFL's. (and, I assume some of those slide through the rather large "cracks"!)

On another note, does anyone believe that any information that goes through NICS is "destroyed"? maybe before the "computer age", but now?

 

[Mango]

I saw this exact situation happen this weekend. Lady was delayed, they told her 3 days, if she was denied they'd keep 20% as a restocking fee and if she won an appeal, they'd give her that 20% as store credit. Elmore's in greenwood.

 

[throttletony]

On my last purchase they called it in first and then rang up the sale.

same here. This has been the standard practice on multiple gun purchases in multiple states where I've lived over the last 10 yrs.

If you ask me, I'd say: Get a better gun shop (or double-check the sign... I have a hard time believing that what you described would be the standard op. proc.)

 

[MrsGungho]

Originally Posted by MrsGungho

Why would it be illegal?
Normally laws on contracts do have something that requires both parties agree to and are given something - if nothing is granted to one party, the contract is usually considered void by the courts!
If there is a sign present in the store, you have agreed. If they tell you ahead of time and you continue with the sale, you have agreed. If someone asked for money before the NICS check was done, it looks pretty obvious that all the commandos here would ask about it first.

You have bought the gun. The gun store has nothing to do with whether you take it home or not. If you are denied, the gun is still yours.

It is NOT YOURS, the gun must remain in the ownership and possession of the Dealer
But the dealer can no longer display or try to sell it to someone else as long as it is tied up with YOUR paper work, therefore, the gun is YOURS. Restocking fee applies.
You pay a restocking fee if you choose to not file an appeal and return the gun. YOU CAN NOT TAKE POSSESSION OF THE GUN - how can you return it?
THE GUN CAN'T BE PUT OUT FOR SALE BECAUSE IT IS TIED TO YOUR PAPERWORK, THE OWNER IS SUPPOSED TO SIT ON THAT MONEY UNTIL YOUR APPEAL IS FINISHED?
How many places charge a restocking fee? I do believe there are just a few out there.

It can't be "removed" from "stock" until transferred to another owner. Therefore there should not/can't be a "RE-stocking" fee!
If you appeal your denial, it can't be sold.. It sits in the safe where the owner loses money on it every day
I often purchase firearms on a "whim" when I am many miles from home. If for some reason I am "Delayed". I probably would not wish to drive 150 mile round trip to purchase the firearm. Even though it wouldn't be their fault, it also obviously wouldn't be my fault as I hold a current FFL-03.

I would be pretty irate if the shop refused to refund my money! WON"T HAPPEN WITH ME.

NOBODY IS FORCING ANYONE TO PAY BEFORE THE CALL IS MADE. SO IT DOESN'T HAVE TO HAPPEN TO ANYONE!! IF YOU WANT THE GUN IN THAT STORE AND THAT IS THERE POLICY, THEN YOU'LL DO IT THEIR WAY OR NOT GET THAT GUN.