Proof you own your gun

[jedi]

The recent post by someone who had their gun stolen got me wondering.
How do I prove that my gun is mine? So this is what I did last night but need some help with.

1) Scanned reciept of my handgun purchase which shows my name, name of store, name of gun and serial number
2) Made a simple TXT file and put the above info on it.
3) Made a copy of the files and placed on my backup server and on my "internet server" (off site not at my home)
4) Put the reciept in the safe.

Was going to do with this with SG but alas I don't have the reciept. I only have the credit card statement that shows I purchases "something" at Big 5 Sporting Goods in CA back in 2006. I have no clue where the reciept may be if I still have it.

So how can I prove that the SG is mine? Any advise?
Thanks

 

[paddling_man]

I'm not sure you can.

The following is a post I made to the thread "Legality of trading guns:"

For the OP, bear in mind that the culture of "no paperwork - no addresses," is something you may or may not find if you move to another State... and you take your firearms with you.

My job has the attribute that I may move every few years - there are typically only 3-8 positions for what I do in each metropolitan area. I've been here two years and have adapted to (and even enjoy!) the ease of handgun purchasing/selling trading. I'm not talking comparisons to NJ/CA/IL.

My last City was St. Louis for about 8 years. Want to buy a handgun? Want to trade a handgun (where you receive one in kind?) You need to drive your little heiny down to the local police precinct / sheriff's department and apply for a Permit To Acquire A Handgun.

If you were lucky, you lived in one of the more rural burbs - the sheriff might sign it while you wait. If you lived in Saint Louis County (and all of the good schools were in St Louis County) then you waited... Fill it out in the local precinct. Give them $10. It then gets transferred downtown. The law requires that a YES or NO has to be given in, I think, 10 days. Inevitably, it took ten days in St. Louis.

The signed form is then slow-boated back to the precinct house - NO, you can't pick it up at a different precinct or downtown.

What does this form give you? "Permission" to acquire a handgun through a shop, at a gun show, from an individual - whether through trade or purchase. The completed form post-transaction had to be mailed back to the issue LE agency. This form began counting down from the moment you picked it up and you had so many weeks/months to exercise this acquisition.

What's the point? You had a paperwork trail. A trail of forms that could prove ownership (or past-ownership / transfer) of a handgun. Why was that important? St Louis Metro PD had a standing practice: If your CC handgun was "noticed" by a LEO, unless you could prove ownership, the handgun was confiscated, taken downtown and held in evidence until you could prove ownership. Guilty until proven innocent. This was the case as recently as early 2007. Myself and most folks kept documentation in our vehicles proving ownership of every handgun you might carry. Some even shrank itsy-bitsy business card size facsimiles of the document, laminated it and kept it in their wallet.

I had (have) a Utah Non-Resident permit, along with my newly acquired Lifetime from IN!! A concealed handgun permit got you nothing in terms of purchasing expedience.

I don't require a receipt for a sell or trade - you guys have "broken" me of it. I do recognize that it could come back to bite me if/when I move to another State and have to prove ownership.

One poster from MO summed it up better than me:



Another note - Shortly after MO passed Concealed Carry Laws, the St Louis Police department spent thousands in taxpayer funds print "No Handguns Allowed" signs and distributed them free to all businesses by going door-to-door.

It wasn't all bad. One wasn't required to have a permit to simply take a handgun to a range and if you were over (23?), you could legally carry a handgun in your car for self defense without a permit.

Bad News if you don't live in a good neighborhood. Presumed Guilty if the parent doesn't consent to search?


Hazelwood - a St Louis County Community



https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/general_firearms_discussion/21265-legality_of_trading_guns-2.html#post240230

 

[Apokalypsi]

This is what I've read on here. Make a file with the serial number of each firearm along with recognizable things on it (i.e. upgrades, stamps, etc.) and take pictures of it. Keep this all on a backup HD and put the HD in your safe.

 

[redneck919]

i do pretty much exactly what Apokalypsi mentioned. i take a photo of my guns and then one of the serial number.then have a sheet with all my guns and their serial #'s.but then again i dont really need to do all this considering im very good at hiding all my guns for no one to find if someone were to break in.

 

[jedi]

@paddling_man

The reason for my OP is not becuase I want a paper-trail to show the police but more thinking of insurace purposes and say "x" years from now the gun is found well how can I get it back if all I say is well it's mine since it has serial # xxxx on it. Anyone can say serial # xxxx is theres.



@redneck/Apokalypsi

I like your idea. I do have images of it.

 

[Eprobertson1]

If you have the Make, model, color and serial number along with a photo, they're going to give you the benefit that you did own this gun. But if it was stolen and you did not report it as being stolen along with a police report, then there is doubt. They could then claim that you sold it or gave it away and are now trying to claim it back.

 

[paddling_man]

jediagh - Both were the common thread of proving ownership in the event they are held - either as theft recovery or otherwise - by a public entity. Lack of paper trail yields difficulty proving ownership. More of a problem in some States than others.

During those "heady, early days of permits" in St Louis, I can assure you they would have laughed if, after they took your weapon 'til you could come in and establish proof of ownership, you had showed up with a picture of the firearm's serial number.

Again, I understand that wasn't your point. My point is when you are recovering these items - found after stolen - some departments in this State and others may be more or less stringent about the evidence required to establish ownership.

 

[jblomenberg16]

@paddling_man

The reason for my OP is not becuase I want a paper-trail to show the police but more thinking of insurace purposes and say "x" years from now the gun is found well how can I get it back if all I say is well it's mine since it has serial # xxxx on it. Anyone can say serial # xxxx is theres.



@redneck/Apokalypsi

I like your idea. I do have images of it.

I've been wondering the same thing. I'm wondering if the info above, like S/N, will be required for insurance? I've insured some of my wife's jewelry, and the certified appraisal was required, which listed a lot of the descriptions for the jewelry, so I would think for other pieces of personal property, this detail would be required as well.

 

[jeremy]

Hmmmm...

Me thinks tomorrow I need to stop and talk to my insurance agent and see what he recommends....

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I take photos of my guns, write the serial number, make and model on the back, put the photos in an 8" x 14" envelope in the back of the gun safe.

You kids and your computers can probably improve on this.

 

[jeremy]

I take photos of my guns, write the serial number, make and model on the back, put the photos in an 8" x 14" envelope in the back of the gun safe.

You kids and your computers can probably improve on this.

That is why I want to ask my Insurance Agent what is acceptable from their standing. You are going to have a fight to get your guns back from the Government regardless, some Cities/Counties are better than others though. But I want the Insurance to pay me without so many hiccups...

 

[tcshooter]

My brother-in-law lives in St Louis and I have heard of this activity started by the county sheriff and the St Louis Police chief. Apparently they will confiscate ANY weapons the find at ANY time during a traffic stop or......and their excuse was that they were doing this as a matter of public safety.

The truth was that they had spent thousands of dollars in legal fees trying to keep the concealed carry law from passing and in their dislike of losing they were going to be a royal pain to any gun toting citizens they come across.

last I heard they were being sued because they said they were only holding the weapons to prove they were not stolen...then it changed to say that they were keeping them to prove ownership...all in the name of public safety.

Either way, they are taking away people's private property without reason or probable cause and it is causing them some legal issues as far as refusing to return it to the owner. They cannot prove you DON'T own it...they have no choice so all they can do is delay and be a pain...time to vote someone out of office next election!!!

 

[jedi]

@ all with "paper proof" in the safe.
That is good since the safe probably is not going to be taken (assuming large bolted safe). However think about fire/tornado as well in which the safe is taken by the wind or the paper burns inside the safe.

Might I suggest you scan the papers as well make them into .JPGs and also keep a .txt file with the info. Now keep a copy on your PC but also get this free service/software.

dropbox.com

You can store up to 2GB of info on the internet as well for free. (If you need more space you must .) In any case encrypt the files if you like and upload to the net. Then if you ever need them (say the whole house burns) you can get on any other PC and connect to the net and you have the info.

This is what I just finished doing. I did find the sales receipt from CA for the SG!

Oh if you want to encrypt files you can use this other free program as well.
TrueCrypt - Free Open-Source On-The-Fly Disk Encryption Software for Windows Vista/XP, Mac OS X and Linux

 

[U.S. Patriot]

I have the receipts. I have the serial numbers saved on my computer. One printed here, and at my parents house. I also have a picture cd, here and at my parents house.

 

[Michiana]

If you bought the gun in a FTF with no paper work and you take a photo and record the serial number etc. that only shows you have the gun in your posession, not that you purchased it or had it gifted from the previous owen. If you did the transaction through a FFL that information of who transfered it and who bought it; make, model, cal. and serial number is recorded in his bound book and the 4473 form. The FFL is required to keep this papework for 20 years or turn it into the ATF if they close their business.

If you are afraid to have that information recorded you leave yourself open to having no proof the gun is legally yours. Obviously a signed receipt with this same information is the second best proof and also shows you paid for the gun. Can't always have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Eprobertson1]

Obviously a signed receipt with this same information is the second best proof and also shows you paid for the gun.

All a receipt shows - private/used gun sale, including a FFL purchase on a used gun, is that you payed for a used gun. Who to say that you bought the gun from the actual owner? If you buy a used gun, do ask to see the receipt of purchase from the guy your buying from? Anyone can make up a receipt and put a name on it can't they?

 

[femurphy77]

I don't know, maybe this is too simple; when they added the rider to my homeowners policy my agent told me to record serial #'s, pictures and a general description including perceived value, historical value, etc. The policy covers a fixed dollar value, not number of guns. How many people actually record info when they purchase private party? I typically record plate numbers in case there is an issue down the line. Probably futile but never hurts!

 

[matthock]

Would having a receipt notarized give it greater legal weight? Actually, I'm not sure if that's even possible - can you get any document notarized, or is it only official government documents?

 

[jedi]

All a receipt shows - private/used gun sale, including a FFL purchase on a used gun, is that you payed for a used gun. Who to say that you bought the gun from the actual owner? If you buy a used gun, do ask to see the receipt of purchase from the guy your buying from? Anyone can make up a receipt and put a name on it can't they?

Good point but you are missing the point of the OP (me).
Say today you get home and your gun is gone (Be it that you bought it brand new from an FFL, a used gun from an FFL, a f2f transaction in IN, or any other LEGAL way you might have gotten the gun.) The question's foundation is Okay I've done the Police Report and gave them the serial number and told them what kind it is. Well anyone can give that info.

Is that enough for insurance purposes? Or does having a photo of you and the gun, the receipt showing you bought it, etc. required.

I'm not looking at the what if I bought the gun used form joe and it turned out it was stolen from jane angle. Just what type of info and proof do I need to tell the insurance company. Hey my gunis gone perthe policy you need to give me $xxxx so that I can then go get another whatever.

 

[Michiana]

Is there a positive proof?

All a receipt shows - private/used gun sale, including a FFL purchase on a used gun, is that you payed for a used gun. Who to say that you bought the gun from the actual owner? If you buy a used gun, do ask to see the receipt of purchase from the guy your buying from? Anyone can make up a receipt and put a name on it can't they?

Unless you track a gun back to the manufacturer no one knows if in between owners a gun was stolen. Best you can do is CYA by having a receipt from the seller that you paid XX amount of money for this gun with Ser # XXX from John Smith. All a FFL does is record where the gun came from and who it is going to and mfg, model, serial #, cal and type. This would help in the case of proving to a insurance company you legally owned the gun but not value which could be gotten from the Gun Blue Book.