Practical Land Navigation

[E5RANGER375]

no swamps, though there are plenty of elevation changes and none of it utilizes the existing trails maintained by DNR. When we ran through it this past Spring, I don't think anyone's pace counts were near accurate after dealing with underbrush, ravines, saddles, and all other manner of woodland obstacle.

this is one reason why I didnt do an orienteering coarse at the survival camp last year. its difficult enough to teach beginners on level terrain, and a real ***** to teach them in the forrest with hills and such. pace counts go all to hell quickly.

 

[jeremy]

play with fire and you'll wet the bed

Always wondered why you seen so many Rangers in Depends...

 

[jeremy]

this is one reason why I didnt do an orienteering coarse at the survival camp last year. its difficult enough to teach beginners on level terrain, and a real ***** to teach them in the forrest with hills and such. pace counts go all to hell quickly.

Exactly although it is not a bad thing to use varied terrain with beginners IF you keep the course fairly small say no more than 4 Klicks square with GOOD boundaries to use. Something like if you find blacktop Stop and sit down because you are leaving the course and are lost kinda boundaries.

I like to demonstrate to beginners early that Pace counts change.
Found it keeps the hot shots in the group focused just a little better once they realize they do not know everything...

 

[shibumiseeker]

this is one reason why I didnt do an orienteering coarse at the survival camp last year. its difficult enough to teach beginners on level terrain, and a real ***** to teach them in the forrest with hills and such. pace counts go all to hell quickly.

Are you kidding? I MUCH prefer to run an orienteering course here in the southern part of the state than the northern flat woods! We have way more terrain features here for error correction/reorienting.

Only time in my life I've ever been lost was on an overcast day in a Michigan swamp on my way back to the car from a cave in the Fiborn Karst preserve. No compass, no trail, nothing. Took me an hour to figure out that the swamp actually had a flow direction and if I muddied the water I could see what that direction was if I was patient. Eventually led me back to the cave where I could reorient and got back on track.

I hate flat woods

 

[abnk]

Between E5Ranger and Jeremy, you probably have all the help you need, but if you need an extra set of eyes to review your teaching material, I'd be glad to help. Landnav was one of my favorite subjects to teach.

 

[jeremy]

Are you kidding? I MUCH prefer to run an orienteering course here in the southern part of the state than the northern flat woods! We have way more terrain features here for error correction/reorienting.

Only time in my life I've ever been lost was on an overcast day in a Michigan swamp on my way back to the car from a cave in the Fiborn Karst preserve. No compass, no trail, nothing. Took me an hour to figure out that the swamp actually had a flow direction and if I muddied the water I could see what that direction was if I was patient. Eventually led me back to the cave where I could reorient and got back on track.

I hate flat woods

I do have to agree with you on that. Orienting Courses need Key Terrain Features. Flat Land offers many challenges most do not recognize, you pointed out one that is the lack of Key Terrain Features to navigate off of. Another one that gives people problems is Distances, on the Prairies it is really hard to gauge how far a tree could be...

The key to picking Terrain for a Beginners Course is to pick terrain that is challenging, but not daunting. Not everybody has had a map open in there hands and tried to go anywhere, let alone used a compass and tried to figure angles either...

I have been truly lost most of my life...
The worst I think would either be this Gorge in Panama (took an entire day for 7 of us to figure out which way North was) or trying to cross a Desert in the Dark only with a Strip Map generated on PowerPoint...

Between E5Ranger and Jeremy, you probably have all the help you need, but if you need an extra set of eyes to review your teaching material, I'd be glad to help. Landnav was one of my favorite subjects to teach.

Hmmm....
I don't know what you are talking about. I am just a Dumb Mechanic...

 

[E5RANGER375]

Are you kidding? I MUCH prefer to run an orienteering course here in the southern part of the state than the northern flat woods! We have way more terrain features here for error correction/reorienting.

Only time in my life I've ever been lost was on an overcast day in a Michigan swamp on my way back to the car from a cave in the Fiborn Karst preserve. No compass, no trail, nothing. Took me an hour to figure out that the swamp actually had a flow direction and if I muddied the water I could see what that direction was if I was patient. Eventually led me back to the cave where I could reorient and got back on track.

I hate flat woods

after I was shot at for the first time, I don't think I have ever seen a piece of flat land afterwords. I can now find a 2 inch berm in a matter of seconds ANYWHERE

yes, I do see your point. when I said flat, I was meaning indiana flat

 

[E5RANGER375]

Hmmm....
I don't know what you are talking about. I am just a Dumb Mechanic...

ok, i must know. who called you that so we can go adjust their world view?

 

[abnk]

Hmmm....
I don't know what you are talking about. I am just a Dumb Mechanic...

I thought you were a treadhead.

 

[jeremy]

ok, i must know. who called you that so we can go adjust their world view?

LOL
He has since faded into retirement...

I thought you were a treadhead.

Me a Treadhead...
Have been known to crew a Track or two...
Have also been known to smash a grid square or two...
Even at one time held the fastest engagement time with a Stinger in III Corp...
Amazing were you can go and what you can do in the Army if you have the right attitude...

I actually started out as an 11X. Got medically reclassified to a 63B and then 27M. And have served in about every kinda Combat Arms unit out there except for the Engineers, well them and I refuse to associate with MP's.

 

[E5RANGER375]

LOL
He has since faded into retirement...


Me a Treadhead...
Have been known to crew a Track or two...
Have also been known to smash a grid square or two...
Even at one time held the fastest engagement time with a Stinger in III Corp...
Amazing were you can go and what you can do in the Army if you have the right attitude...

I actually started out as an 11X. Got medically reclassified to a 63B and then 27M. And have served in about every kinda Combat Arms unit out there except for the Engineers, well them and I refuse to associate with MP's.

I already owe you a beer. now you just raised it to a case

 

[shibumiseeker]

I refuse to associate with MP's.

Guy I used to do SAR with had been a Marine MP. He was my size and one of the craziest people I knew; completely fearless. Also one of the best in the business in rescue. I'd trust him with my life but not my wife.

 

[jeremy]

Guy I used to do SAR with had been a Marine MP. He was my size and one of the craziest people I knew; completely fearless. Also one of the best in the business in rescue. I'd trust him with my life but not my wife.

Used to be, one of my few true pleasures in life was to beat on Army MP's... Course that is a long tradition in the Army in real Combat Arms Branches...

Not saying some of them are not great people, just saying if it was a Friday or Saturday night and if they decided we had had enough fun...

 

[Stschil]

Wow! I take an evening away from the 'puter to visit with family and this thing really took off!
Thank you all for your suggestions and interest. I think that we may be able to actually put this together and have some fun with it!

IIRC, the map packet is only about $25. Once you get them, make color copies and divide the total cost among everyone who signs up. Even if you only get 5 people, the cost per person wil only be about $6.

Very good idea. I have been looking for a place to get good topo's of Indiana, plus the surrounding states as well.

I've been known to teach the map and compass course at IU from time to time so if you need some help teaching this more than happy to help out.

I will never turn down help or a different view. I learned a long time ago that I can't always be right and that when I stop listening, I stop learning.

this is one reason why I didnt do an orienteering coarse at the survival camp last year. its difficult enough to teach beginners on level terrain, and a real ***** to teach them in the forrest with hills and such. pace counts go all to hell quickly.

I'm not so sure about that. At least for me, Terrain Association made it much easier for me to bring all the other subskills together.

LOL
He has since faded into retirement...


Me a Treadhead...
Have been known to crew a Track or two...
Have also been known to smash a grid square or two...
Even at one time held the fastest engagement time with a Stinger in III Corp...
Amazing were you can go and what you can do in the Army if you have the right attitude...

I actually started out as an 11X. Got medically reclassified to a 63B and then 27M. And have served in about every kinda Combat Arms unit out there except for the Engineers, well them and I refuse to associate with MP's.

Crap! Not even a Former 1st CAV MP? I guess that leaves me out in the woods by myself.

 

[jeremy]

Crap! Not even a Former 1st CAV MP? I guess that leaves me out in the woods by myself.

Depends...
When were you in the CAV?! I was 4-5 ADA and1-7 from 95-98...

 

[Stschil]

Used to be, one of my few true pleasures in life was to beat on Army MP's... Course that is a long tradition in the Army in real Combat Arms Branches...

Not saying some of them are not great people, just saying if it was a Friday or Saturday night and if they decided we had had enough fun...

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. But I have to defend my bretheran, just a little....
The role of the MP in the past was strictly Law Enforcement, so they were REMFs and a hated group. Especially by the Combat Arms guys, who just wanted to drink away the horrors and blow off some steam whenever the did get to the rear. Too many MP's did not understand that their first job was to Protect. Not just the general population, but the poor 11B who just drug is a$$ in from the bush after loading his best friend in a body bag.

I fought to change the attitudes of my soldiers. Taught them that the 'cuff and stuff' wasn't always the best way to handle a situation. There were many, many times when I would take a guy who had been in a little trouble and just drop him off at the barracks with the CQ. Let him sleep it off with no PW or call to the CO, etc. I was always repaid in the end. It always seemed like when something really bad did happen, one of those guys that I helped would step up and help me diffuse and set things right.
I had quite a friends in the Combat MOS's because I realized that they weren't just dumb grunts or tank jockeys. They were actually some of the smartest soldiers I knew.

 

[Stschil]

Depends...
When were you in the CAV?! I was 4-5 ADA and1-7 from 95-98...

94 to 96. 545 MP Co, 3rd Plt. Direct support to 3rd Bde. When they rolled, so did we.

 

[E5RANGER375]

I'm not so sure about that. At least for me, Terrain Association made it much easier for me to bring all the other subskills together.

yeah, but you had "subskills" already. Im talking about teaching people who have nothing yet. I guess, if one had the right trainer it would be possible. Im just not that guy and I will admit it. My level of patience isnt the best in the world anymore. not that I would get all crazy on people, I would just go nuts internally after repeating myself a dozen times, lol. just being honest. It would be no fault of the participants. but I would like to come. Im milder in person than on here, I promise

 

[jeremy]

94 to 96. 545 MP Co, 3rd Plt. Direct support to 3rd Bde. When they rolled, so did we.

I guess you'll do in a pinch...
LOL!

You Probably used to chase us around Range Road too! I remember when they upgraded to Post MP's to the Dodge pickups. used to run them up Cow house until they would get stuck chasing us.

GaaryOwen!

 

[Stschil]

yeah, but you had "subskills" already. Im talking about teaching people who have nothing yet. I guess, if one had the right trainer it would be possible. Im just not that guy and I will admit it. My level of patience isnt the best in the world anymore. not that I would get all crazy on people, I would just go nuts internally after repeating myself a dozen times, lol. just being honest. It would be no fault of the participants. but I would like to come.

Good point. I sometimes forget that there are quite a few people who have never even held a map, let alone taken said map and compass and make them both point north at the same time.