Police Priorities: War on Drugs, or Violent Crime?

[rambone]

Anyone on here advocating the legalization of hard drugs like heroin, or meth has never been around people hooked on these drugs or their families.

Not true. I have known several people suffering from severe addiction, including multiple friends as well as a cousin. The laws didn't stop them, and it wasn't government that saved them.

 

[Bummer]

Anyone on here advocating the legalization of hard drugs like heroin, or meth has never been around people hooked on these drugs or their families. The fact that it is illegal does stop some people from trying it. Yeah, you wouldn't try heroin today if it were legal, but you are a mature adult not some 15 year-old kid under peer pressure who doesn't understand anything standing outside a gas station saying, "Hey Mr. can you buy me a hit." Once you hit heroin it's over.

Did anyone actually advocate the legalization of anything? I must have missed that. All I've said is that violence is a result of criminalization and not the drug itself, whatever that drug may be.

I think you chose the wrong drug as your example. I've seen people use heroin, then quit. It appeared to be a fairly painful process, but they still quit. Same for meth. Crack cocaine seems to be a much larger problem than the others. Of course, in that I've never gone down that path I don't know if it's that large a problem or if it's all just more excuses.

 

[TMU317]

Ultimately, my point was that we should punish the actual crime of violence not the excuse. I never said I didn't want the miscreant punished.

I agree. Anyone who commits a violent crime should be punished. However, I have a hard time imagining that decriminalizing drugs like heroin, meth, or cocaine will eliminate violence associated with those drugs and suddenly make our society a better place. Regardless of the legality of those drugs the people who choose to use them will still have to find a way to purchase them. For those who currently support their drug habit by stealing from others, I doubt they will suddenly change their mind and get a job because their drug of choice is now legal and they can purchase it at a convenience store.

 

[TMU317]

Of course, if criminals were actually kept in jail where they belong then this problem wouldn't be nearly as large as it is. When an individual can break into house after house and continue to be released back into society only to be arrested for the same crime and released again it does no good for our society either.

 

[KG1]

I agree. Anyone who commits a violent crime should be punished. However, I have a hard time imagining that decriminalizing drugs like heroin, meth, or cocaine will eliminate violence associated with those drugs and suddenly make our society a better place. Regardless of the legality of those drugs the people who choose to use them will still have to find a way to purchase them. For those who currently support their drug habit by stealing from others, I doubt they will suddenly change their mind and get a job because their drug of choice is now legal and they can purchase it at a convenience store.

Well that's the whole point though. If a certain amount of crime is gonna be attributed to drug use anyway whether it's legal or not then why not try to realistically do what you can to try and take the violence out of the illegal drug trade on the supply side by making it legal and regulating it such as what's being done with alcohol.

 

[LEaSH]

Who's making the most money from illicit drugs?

Making them legal makes that middle management obsolete.

I assure all of you, there will not be mass layoffs of police officers if drug decriminalization were to take place. Correction Officers - maybe. But there smugglers, dealers, and processors will most likely move to creat a new and equally destructive method of making cash.

 

[TMU317]

Well that's the whole point though. If a certain amount of crime is gonna be attributed to drug use anyway whether it's legal or not then why not try to realistically do what you can to try and take the violence out of the illegal drug trade by making it legal and regulating it such as what's being done with alcohol.

I was just pointing out that there is in fact violence which is directly associated with drug use, and not all of this violence is simply a result of the criminalization of certain drugs. Alcohol is a completely different animal than a drug like heroin or meth. The argument for decriminalizing marijuana I can understand to some extent, but I am not so sure when it comes to some of the other illegal drugs.

 

[88GT]

Anyone on here advocating the legalization of hard drugs like heroin, or meth has never been around people hooked on these drugs or their families. The fact that it is illegal does stop some people from trying it. Yeah, you wouldn't try heroin today if it were legal, but you are a mature adult not some 15 year-old kid under peer pressure who doesn't understand anything standing outside a gas station saying, "Hey Mr. can you buy me a hit." Once you hit heroin it's over.

I may be the one success case, but all that drug education in elementary school worked for me. So did a close relationship with my mom, and an upbringing that emphasized morality, wise decisions, cause-and-effect, and standards that must be kept in order to keep breathing.

Age isn't the determining factor.

 

[rw496]

You realize of course, that it is easier for a kid to buy heroine than alcohol right? It is easier because it is illegal. Alcohol is sold in well-lit stores in public places with a defined set of rules about who can buy it. Illegal drugs are sold by scum-bags in dark alleys and they don't check ID's.

I disagree with that. Could you go buy heroin right now? If so, would you want to go there and take a chance of being robbed, sold fake stuff, etc.? Most kids from the 'burbs around here have to go to Gary's Midtown section to buy..that's deterrent enough for some.

 

[NYFelon]

I was just pointing out that there is in fact violence which is directly associated with drug use, and not all of this violence is simply a result of the criminalization of certain drugs. Alcohol is a completely different animal than a drug like heroin or meth. The argument for decriminalizing marijuana I can understand to some extent, but I am not so sure when it comes to some of the other illegal drugs.

Why and how is alcohol different than heroin or methamphetamines? You do realize that prohibition gave rise to the modern model of what we know as organized crime, correct? Trade in illicit alcohol during prohibition resulted in untold deaths and violence on a sweeping scale. Why should other drugs, and alcohol is a drug, respond differently when their markets are opened up to legitimate channels of commerce?

 

[rw496]

I may be the one success case, but all that drug education in elementary school worked for me. So did a close relationship with my mom, and an upbringing that emphasized morality, wise decisions, cause-and-effect, and standards that must be kept in order to keep breathing.

Age isn't the determining factor.

You're right. If everybody came from a family like that the world would be a lot better place.
Drug education does deter some from using drugs. I wonder if the government comtrolled the drug trade and was making a ton of money if there would still be as much "Just say No" in all these federally funded schools. It would probably be more about moderation like: Heroin: know when enough is enough; Crack: must be 21 to purchase.

 

[XMil]

I disagree with that. Could you go buy heroin right now? If so, would you want to go there and take a chance of being robbed, sold fake stuff, etc.? Most kids from the 'burbs around here have to go to Gary's Midtown section to buy..that's deterrent enough for some.

I can't be certain about your location, but when I was in high school, I could have had any of these substances within a day, on school grounds (in Columbus, not exactly a sleazy town). Beer on the other hand was hard to get, you had to ask an "adult".

 

[rw496]

Here is my problem with the legalization of marijuana. It is the fact that the government has never seriously considered it until they were in complete financial ruin. Everyone is so eager to take whatever bone the government will throw them they are saying exactly what the government wants to hear, "Legalize it and tax the heck out of it." How about this, "legalize it and DON'T tax the heck out of it." How about repealing all the ridiculous excise taxes we have now. Smoke and mirrors, literally. Instead of focusing on ways to right spending they are thinking of ways to generate revenue no matter what the cost is to society.

 

[Benny]

the effects of legalization aside... uhhhh drugs and violent crime go hand in hand. Is anyone going to dispute that?

If it were legal, and you could buy it in a convenience store, nobody would be shooting each other over it.

Do people get shot over cigarettes, or Red Bull?

Why did you choose to ignore the first 5 words of Kutnupe's post?

 

[NYFelon]

@rw496

Since you specifically used marijuana as an example, what would be the "cost to society", if cannabis was decriminalized?

 

[dross]

When laws criminalize anything except the initiation of force, you create a disconnect in the minds of those who are supposed to follow the law as well as those who are supposed to enforce it. Logic now no longer applies. This creates a separation between those who enforce the law and those governed by it.

If all the police did was investigate violent crime, I think there would be a huge amount of respect for police. It's the interaction that the average citizen has with the enforcers of the law that creates this conflict.

Which law enforcement agency has the most respect? I'd say the FBI. Which has the least? Probably the ATF on this site. Why? Because law-abiding people don't fear the FBI. We don't kidnap or rob banks or in any other way initiate force. Why do many of us despise the ATF? Because we know we can make an honest mistake and get in trouble with them. We think their rules are stupid and their enforcment arbitrary. Mainly because we either come in contact with them, or foresee that we might. None of us thinks we'll ever see the FBI, because we don't do things that will draw the FBI.

The drug laws are insidious in many ways. First, most people have tried pot. If they haven't, someone they love has. Yet it's illegal. My favorite Aunt Gertrude smokes it, I don't think she should go to jail, so it's a small step to think that the guy who sold it to her shouldn't go to jail either.

It's so obvious as to not need an argument to see that it is the illegality of drugs that creates the violence. Anyone who can't see that as obvious is too ignorant too argue with, or they have some personal stake in the matter. Everything illegal that people want anyway exists in a violent market. No legal markets in anything generate the violence that an illegal market in anything will cause. The closest is alcohol, but that's not a function of the market, but of the drug's effect. In fact, alcohol is the one drug for which there is any argument for illegality, since it does make one more prone to violence after ingesting it. Yet, we tried to make it illegal, largely for that very reason - it was women's groups who led the fight against it because of domestic abuse - and it didn't work.

Do cops enforce drug laws more vigorously than violence at a bar? I don't know, and the cops here are right to point out that we can't know from the lies journalists tell.

Yet it sounds pretty likely on its face. It passes the smell test. Did cops target her because she embarassed them? I don't know from the article. Maybe, maybe not. I do know that has happened many times and many places. It passes the smell test. But it could be a lie.

If cops never did things like that, it wouldn't pass the smell test.

A few years ago, someone smashed in my truck window and took everthing of value in my truck. The police didn't send someone out, they said they didn't in such situations. They took my report in five minutes over the phone.

If I told them I saw a duffel bag full of dope in my neighbor's house, would they send someone out? You guys tell me.

 

[jeremy]

I disagree with that. Could you go buy heroin right now? If so, would you want to go there and take a chance of being robbed, sold fake stuff, etc.? Most kids from the 'burbs around here have to go to Gary's Midtown section to buy..that's deterrent enough for some.

I am sure that within an Hour of looking for it, I could have it if I wanted. Along with several other Prohibited items.

And I live out here in the middle of Cornfield Indiana. Location does not really matter to much, granted some places illegal items are more prevalent than others. However, even in the "good" Neighborhoods contraband can still be found, if you want it...

 

[jeremy]

Why did you choose to ignore the first 5 words of Kutnupe's post?

Reading Comprehension Handicap?!

I have noticed a trend here lately that several posters are (or starting to) exhibit this infliction...

 

[NYFelon]

When laws criminalize anything except the initiation of force, you create a disconnect in the minds of those who are supposed to follow the law as well as those who are supposed to enforce it. Logic now no longer applies. This creates a separation between those who enforce the law and those governed by it.

If all the police did was investigate violent crime, I think there would be a huge amount of respect for police. It's the interaction that the average citizen has with the enforcers of the law that creates this conflict.

Which law enforcement agency has the most respect? I'd say the FBI. Which has the least? Probably the ATF on this site. Why? Because law-abiding people don't fear the FBI. We don't kidnap or rob banks or in any other way initiate force. Why do many of us despise the ATF? Because we know we can make an honest mistake and get in trouble with them. We think their rules are stupid and their enforcment arbitrary. Mainly because we either come in contact with them, or foresee that we might. None of us thinks we'll ever see the FBI, because we don't do things that will draw the FBI.

The drug laws are insidious in many ways. First, most people have tried pot. If they haven't, someone they love has. Yet it's illegal. My favorite Aunt Gertrude smokes it, I don't think she should go to jail, so it's a small step to think that the guy who sold it to her shouldn't go to jail either.

It's so obvious as to not need an argument to see that it is the illegality of drugs that creates the violence. Anyone who can't see that as obvious is too ignorant too argue with, or they have some personal stake in the matter. Everything illegal that people want anyway exists in a violent market. No legal markets in anything generate the violence that an illegal market in anything will cause. The closest is alcohol, but that's not a function of the market, but of the drug's effect. In fact, alcohol is the one drug for which there is any argument for illegality, since it does make one more prone to violence after ingesting it. Yet, we tried to make it illegal, largely for that very reason - it was women's groups who led the fight against it because of domestic abuse - and it didn't work.

Do cops enforce drug laws more vigorously than violence at a bar? I don't know, and the cops here are right to point out that we can't know from the lies journalists tell.

Yet it sounds pretty likely on its face. It passes the smell test. Did cops target her because she embarassed them? I don't know from the article. Maybe, maybe not. I do know that has happened many times and many places. It passes the smell test. But it could be a lie.

If cops never did things like that, it wouldn't pass the smell test.

A few years ago, someone smashed in my truck window and took everthing of value in my truck. The police didn't send someone out, they said they didn't in such situations. They took my report in five minutes over the phone.

If I told them I saw a duffel bag full of dope in my neighbor's house, would they send someone out? You guys tell me.

A-1 post sir.

 

[TMU317]

Why and how is alcohol different than heroin or methamphetamines? You do realize that prohibition gave rise to the modern model of what we know as organized crime, correct? Trade in illicit alcohol during prohibition resulted in untold deaths and violence on a sweeping scale. Why should other drugs, and alcohol is a drug, respond differently when their markets are opened up to legitimate channels of commerce?

I was simply referring to the fact that they are different on the molecular level and have completely different physiological effects. Thus, they are different. There is no lack of scientific publication regarding this. Heroin is highly addictive, more so than alcohol according to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders: American Psychiatric Association. Alcohol abuse does not necessarily lead to alcohol dependence. Yes, I am well aware of prohibition and the issues which are associated with it.