Pistol Caliber Carbine - SC & USPSA

[rvb]

I'll play devil's advocate for both sides ...

USPSA is not a pistol only organization. That is why there is a subset of rules for 3 gun competition.

The strange part about this change is the insertion of rifles into the Handgun rulebook. For a long time there has been a handgun rule book and a multi-gun rulebook. So while it's not a pistol-only organization, we have always had pistol-only matches.

people like me who are not all that interested in pistol shooting, get into it. I like shooting 3 gun, but really enjoy the rifle portion of it more than the pistol and shotgun. So for me it would be a win/win.

I don't know if getting more people like you is a selling point , but I suspect this may at least generate more new interest in the sport than CO. 3 gun is very popular, imo primarily for the rifles. PCC allows folks to shoot carbines, not have to drag along a ton of gear, not spend 90 minutes per stage due to the staging/clearing of multiple guns, not worry about ballistics for long range, etc. If it allowed rifle calibers I think it would draw a TON of interest (many will have to build/buy a PCC even if they already have a rifle) at the expense of limiting what ranges it could be shot on.

-rvb

 

[Coach]

Some thoughts:

1) Open guns are very practical for a home defense gun. Large capacity, low recoil, accurate. I will take that stuff any time. I know of one successful use during a break in.
2) Ports, barricades and different start positions can and will be a stage design issue. One stage and one start position for everyone. If it is not safe or practical for all divisions the division is the problem not the start position.
3) Flagging and bagging and gun handling per the rules will be more work for RO's and will take time.
4) Plenty of PCC don't run worth a damn, many of the people I have seen shooting them are not very good either. This will add time.
5) Leave the pistol matches as pistol matches and if the demand is there let this be a stand alone match. If the demand is not their do not saddle the pistol matches with this.
6) With 80 shooters at club matches new interest is not needed as badly as other things, and really cannot be handled. We need more ranges and more clubs and more places to shoot matches before we need more divisions. PCC being added will not make these other things happen.
7) New shooters who have not shot a pistol match looking for a place to shoot their PCC will complicate every match. I am not crazy about the idea of being on a range with a new shooter toting a long gun and not aware of the 180. I see the 180 on a lateral motion stage being an issue. A lot. Pistols can be scary, but I see PCC being harder to comply to the rules.
8) What is a pistol caliber? (the rules may define this i don't care enough to look it up) If the rules do define what is it is likely arbitrary if not the arguments will begin and that takes time.

 

[racegunz]

I agree with Mr Bright, especially point #5 don't saddle a pistol match with PCC, I don't shoot 3-gun for a reason don't turn every USPSA match into a two gun abortion.
If you just have to do it at the same match a separate squad of PCC only might work. Of course I am old school I think the only divisions should be open and limited, and the class system should be dumped along with the "special" categories... but that's just me.

 

[rvb]

[singing..]

 

[romack991]

Making PCC final for Steel Challenge-All-discussion, motion by Area 1, second by Area 2 to add Open and Limited PCC Divisions to Steel Challenge, restricted to the use of semi-automatic firearms only, to allow compensators/muzzle breaks in both divisions, and instruct USPSA HQ to enact the change as soon as possible
Area 1-Yes, Area 2-Yes, Area 3-Yes, Area 4-Yes, Area 5-Yes, Area 6-Yes, Area 7-Yes, Area 8-Yes,President-Yes8

PCC for USPSA, continued discussion-All-discussion with consensus that firearms used in PCC must have a shoulder stock, must be semi-automatic, legality defaults to the responsibility ofthe competitor (allows for use of SBRs and select fire guns to be fired semi-auto only), to restrict calibers to only 9mm, .40/10mm, and .45 ACP, entire board adamant that PCC remain an optional provisional division to ensure MD and club/facility discretion, rule 5.2.4 applies, Open high hit factors to be used, DNROI to bring rules and appendix for vote either April 12, or May 10, 2016, and President to instruct USPSA HQ to arrange implementation simultaneously,motion by Area 1, second by Area 4 to proceed with implementation
Area 1-Yes, Area 2-Yes, Area 3-Yes, Area 4-Yes, Area 5-Yes, Area 6-Yes, Area 7-Yes, Area 8-Yes,President-Yes

https://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20160308.pdf

 

[Combsie]

https://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20160308.pdf

(As long as local MD's allow it that is.......)

 

[cschwanz]

Some thoughts:

1) Open guns are very practical for a home defense gun. Large capacity, low recoil, accurate. I will take that stuff any time. I know of one successful use during a break in.
2) Ports, barricades and different start positions can and will be a stage design issue. One stage and one start position for everyone. If it is not safe or practical for all divisions the division is the problem not the start position.
3) Flagging and bagging and gun handling per the rules will be more work for RO's and will take time.
4) Plenty of PCC don't run worth a damn, many of the people I have seen shooting them are not very good either. This will add time.
5) Leave the pistol matches as pistol matches and if the demand is there let this be a stand alone match. If the demand is not their do not saddle the pistol matches with this.
6) With 80 shooters at club matches new interest is not needed as badly as other things, and really cannot be handled. We need more ranges and more clubs and more places to shoot matches before we need more divisions. PCC being added will not make these other things happen.
7) New shooters who have not shot a pistol match looking for a place to shoot their PCC will complicate every match. I am not crazy about the idea of being on a range with a new shooter toting a long gun and not aware of the 180. I see the 180 on a lateral motion stage being an issue. A lot. Pistols can be scary, but I see PCC being harder to comply to the rules.
8) What is a pistol caliber? (the rules may define this i don't care enough to look it up) If the rules do define what is it is likely arbitrary if not the arguments will begin and that takes time.

1) ... And after the first shot, you'll be deaf for an hour lol
2) After 4 years of shooting a rifle in 3gun, there wont be any major issues with ports or barricades. you can shoot around or though them just fine. Start position according to the provision rule set posted somewhere else is facing down range, gun at low ready. Seems easy and safe enough to me.
3) putting a flag in a chamber adds 5 seconds once the gun is empty. then carry it back to the tables in a safe condition.
4) Plenty of pistols don't run worth a damn, many of the people I have seen shooting them are not very good either. This already adds time.
5) Yes, this is the weird spot. Rifles at a pistol match seems odd.
6) 80 shooters is sure to make a long day. For matches that pull in 25-30, an extra few shooters may be a good thing. MDs with 80+ shooters can just not allow the division, problem solved.
7) New shooters who have not shot a pistol match looking for a place to shoot their pistol complicate every match. I am not crazy about the idea of being on a range with a new shooter toting any gun and not aware of the 180. I see the 180 on a lateral motion stage being an issue. A lot.
8) 10 Seconds in the rule book or BoD minutes will have your answer here. Any MD who is thinking about it will need to spend these every precious 10 seconds. I'll save the time for you: 9mm, 10mm/.40, .45acp


This division is the exact same as CO to me. I don't have a personal interest but I'm sure other people might. Adding them won't effect my shooting performance or my match score so who cares.

 

[BillD]

I just said I like that part

Is shooting A PCC practical?

Why wouldn't it be practical?

You should run for elected office...

 

[midget]

Some thoughts:

1) Open guns are very practical for a home defense gun. Large capacity, low recoil, accurate. I will take that stuff any time. I know of one successful use during a break in.
2) Ports, barricades and different start positions can and will be a stage design issue. One stage and one start position for everyone. If it is not safe or practical for all divisions the division is the problem not the start position.
3) Flagging and bagging and gun handling per the rules will be more work for RO's and will take time.
4) Plenty of PCC don't run worth a damn, many of the people I have seen shooting them are not very good either. This will add time.
5) Leave the pistol matches as pistol matches and if the demand is there let this be a stand alone match. If the demand is not their do not saddle the pistol matches with this.
6) With 80 shooters at club matches new interest is not needed as badly as other things, and really cannot be handled. We need more ranges and more clubs and more places to shoot matches before we need more divisions. PCC being added will not make these other things happen.
7) New shooters who have not shot a pistol match looking for a place to shoot their PCC will complicate every match. I am not crazy about the idea of being on a range with a new shooter toting a long gun and not aware of the 180. I see the 180 on a lateral motion stage being an issue. A lot. Pistols can be scary, but I see PCC being harder to comply to the rules.
8) What is a pistol caliber? (the rules may define this i don't care enough to look it up) If the rules do define what is it is likely arbitrary if not the arguments will begin and that takes time.

I just can't pass up the chance to be a smart ass at 8am.

1) I must defer to your overwhelming knowledge of home defense. I know pistols are good-er-er for shooting people.
2) I guess I must have missed this being a problem at the carbine/3gun events that I have shot. Starting position has already been outlined and should work just fine. Before anyone complains, you do not compete with each other between divisions.
3) Flagging and bagging takes less time than the average open shooter's make ready sequence. I'm sure you support rules to change make ready to Draw, Load, and Re-holster only, correct?
4) Yep... Never seen anyone have gun malfunctions at any of the USPSA events.
5) This is the point of provisional status. It helps determine if there is enough interest.
6) So you are now *****ing about having too many shooters already? Lordy... The sport needs to grow, not shrink. Your club is atypical in attendance and well above the average for our state.
7) Fear mongering.. Wonderful. Did I just stumble back into the Outdoors section to the new hunting regulations post? The rules are very straight forward. If you cannot handle your firearm in a safe manner, you are out. This needs to be explained to new shooters no matter what platform they decide to compete with. If you cannot handle this, then someone else needs to take over the duties of RM.
8) RTFBOD (I'm coining the new term...)

Remember, no one is forcing you to shoot the division. Treat it like Limited 10, only shoot it when it might win you something.

 

[cschwanz]

https://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20160308.pdf

Looks like official rules won't be established until April or even May. Gives us plenty of time to argue about stuff here

 

[rvb]

Looks like official rules won't be established until April or even May. Gives us plenty of time to argue about stuff here

Thats how I read it. A division for SC, but still just an idea for USPSA (shooting it now would be 'outlaw')

-rvb

 

[BillD]

I'm trying to figure why an open gun is a good HD gun but a PCC isn't?

 

[midget]

I'm trying to figure why an open gun is a good HD gun but a PCC isn't?

Because James Yeager says so?

 

[BillD]

Because James Yeager says so?

My apologies, I stand corrected.
I know Yeager has his faults but being wrong isn't one of them.

 

[midget]

My apologies, I stand corrected.
I know Yeager has his faults but being wrong isn't one of them.

He is the tactical god. You should bow to his knowledge of self defense!

 

[midget]

 

[mongo404]

See the end part of the sentence

Is shooting A PCC practical? For some maybe!!

Ok As a whole USPSA does own or have a rule book for 3 gun.

Correction in my statement

In my OPINION USPSA pistol matches should be just that!!!

AS far as Match HOA it could very possibly change the outcome. And when there is Money involved in some of the bigger matches it will become a bigger deal. Not from my shooting skills but by others with more talent than I.

And when fractions of seconds count towards a HOA match win Standing facing up range and facing down range could add up over a few stages.

Again this is all my opinion.

 

[midget]

See the end part of the sentence

Is shooting A PCC practical? For some maybe!!

Ok As a whole USPSA does own or have a rule book for 3 gun.

Correction in my statement

In my OPINION USPSA pistol matches should be just that!!!

AS far as Match HOA it could very possibly change the outcome. And when there is Money involved in some of the bigger matches it will become a bigger deal. Not from my shooting skills but by others with more talent than I.

And when fractions of seconds count towards a HOA match win Standing facing up range and facing down range could add up over a few stages.

Again this is all my opinion.

USPSA doesn't recognize HOA for an entire matches. HOA only applies within a specific division. IE, Open does not compete against Limited which doesn't compete against Production... and so on. Any match that does award for HOA at a match is doing it outside of the USPSA rule book.

 

[cschwanz]

HOA (combining the whole match) aren't official results though. Only the results within a division are the ones that count. So someone else shooting PCC won't effect the Limited Division winner, since that is determined amongst the Limited shooters only.

^he must have faster Internet, lol

 

[mongo404]

Ok I must be mistaken

So when are you guys going to hold your first PCC match? I mean if there is this much interest in it, It should be able to hold it own right?

Like I stated before the IDPA crowd has their carbine match and it is always a big success.