OC rant at the cowboy forum

[rvb]

...address spectators, just participants. I found it presumptuous when people on the pre-forums IPSC email list would assert that non-competitors were bound by the competition rules, ... Provisions for dealing with carry guns for competitors at USPSA matches (except on a club level in some places) are recent.

Even now it seems to me the rules only pertain to competitors. I don't see how you can apply any current uspsa rules to non-competitors. A DQ? Disqualified from what? A DQ doesn't mean "leave." Unload stations specifically apply to competitors. You make a good point, I agree w/ you there. Again, the OP was from the point of a competitor (I thought).

Perhaps some wording needs added to the rules that, at the MD's discression, a spectator/non-participant/whatever may be evicted from the match facilities for "unsafe gun handling." ... or something to that effect. perhaps that would include comlplying w/ safe-area rules, using an un-load station if handling is desired/needed, otherwise no handling of firearms allowed (irregarless of condition).

However, eviction is tough, especially if the person in violation is not a uspsa member, but is a member of the host club. that would require the club to agree to giving the MD that power, which would have tie-in to affilliation agreements.... it's complicated, which is why it's probably not addressed. Some might take the idea the other way and force the host club to agree that all people on site are cold or can be evicted.

Maybe a sign has to get posted at the range entrance? eg "Match in progress, no gun handling, all firearms must be holstered or bagged."

Might be worth bring up to the Area Director? We can call it the rhino/rvb rule. People will curse us all over the interweb. people will find loopholes. Sedro will get verbally assaulted. it'll be fun.

I'm .

I dunno, part of me thinks it's not an issue... then the other part of me thinks that's just burying head in sand.... what if a spectator violates a general safety rule, likes points a gun at someone while showing off their new grips?? And sure, a lot of that is a liability issue... who's liable? just the individual? Club? Sanctioning body?



-rvb

 

[MilitaryArms]

I've been to many of these events and have competed.

Unlike in a regular daily carry situation, you have people moving guns around unholstered for various reasons. Sometimes they're switching guns up for different stages, sometimes they're showing off some custom work they had done to a fellow shooter, sometimes they're just screwing around (gun twirling was popular at a few events). None of this goes on while you're at dinner with your family at Bakers Square.

People tend to treat firearms as toys at these events. I've seen so many safety violations that it's staggering.

So, I have no problem with them saying guns used in the event for shooting need to be unloaded after leaving the stage. I don't see a problem with keeping a pocket pistol (like a little auto loader) in your pocket for personal protection that's not a weapon used in the event. Some might disagree.

But too many people attend these things and too many of them are completely unsafe. For my own safety I would rather someone check to make sure they have an empty weapon before they go off playing with their guns behind the lines... especially if I'm bringing my family with me to an event.

Hell, I don't even like shooting indoors at Blythes because I see at least 3 idiots that have no business with a firearm in there waiving guns around like morons.

If you don't like the range rules, don't go to the range.

 

[Delmar]

If you don't like the range rules, don't go to the range.

I'm not jumping up and down and pouting just because I am not getting my way on this one. Nor am I planing to take my ball, and go home just because I don't care for one of the rules. I simply think this is a discussion that is worth having. Would you agree?

 

[MilitaryArms]

I'm not jumping up and down and pouting just because I am not getting my way on this one. Nor am I planing to take my ball, and go home just because I don't care for one of the rules.

I don't believe I was talking to you specifically. I also don't recall saying you were doing much of anything including "jumping up and down" or "pouting".

I simply think this is a discussion that is worth having. Would you agree?

I don't recall suggesting otherwise and I certainly don't recall saying anything to you specifically that could be misinterpreted as me trying to silence you.

I'm not a fan of strawman arguments as I feel they're a waste of time and tend to cause flame wars. I was discussing the issue just like everyone else in the thread and gave my perspective based upon my own experiences. If you don't like what I have to say, refute my position without the use of strawman arguments designed to solicit an emotional response.

 

[rvb]

...People tend to treat firearms as toys at these events. I've seen so many safety violations that it's staggering.
...
But too many people attend these things and too many of them are completely unsafe.
...
Hell, I don't even like shooting indoors at Blythes because I see at least 3 idiots that have no business with a firearm in there waiving guns around like morons.

I'm not sure what type of competitions you've attended, but I personally have never seen anything that I would call "staggering" or "completely unsafe." Occassionally I might see the types of things happen that you mention (and that I mention above), but they are the exeption, not the rule. [Again, I can only speak for uspsa/idpa/SCSA/3-guns.] But that's a minor talking point, since we agree that they DO happen, and that's good reason for being cold.

Now the comment about the public range (I assume that's what blythes is?) is dead on in my experience. I hate public ranges. I feel much safer at a match, and that would still be true if the ranges were hot....

None of this goes on while you're at dinner with your family at Bakers Square.

I think this is a key point. In public, handling a loaded gun would cause quite a scene, and just doesn't usually happen. The chances of an 'oops' are much much lower when the consequences for the gun leaving the hoslter are much higher.

-rvb

 

[MilitaryArms]

I'm not sure what type of competitions you've attended, but I personally have never seen anything that I would call "staggering" or "completely unsafe." Occassionally I might see the types of things happen that you mention (and that I mention above), but they are the exeption, not the rule. [Again, I can only speak for uspsa/idpa/SCSA/3-guns.] But that's a minor talking point, since we agree that they DO happen, and that's good reason for being cold.

Fortunately the issues I've seen took place at a range in Illinois, just over the border. They apparently don't hold CAS matches there anymore. If I see one safety violation (pointing a weapon at someone) that's one thing, but I saw several instances if it... most people didn't seem to care. The other thing I saw more than once per event was someone spinning their weapons on their finger, the same weapon they used on the range.

To me that's staggering because I personally can't fathom gun owners being so ignorant of the most basic safety rules. I realize we all have different thresholds for such things, mine happens to be quite low and I realize that.

Now the comment about the public range (I assume that's what blythes is?) is dead on in my experience. I hate public ranges. I feel much safer at a match, and that would still be true if the ranges were hot....

Yes, it's an indoor range in Valparaiso. I too hate public ranges. Again, the safety violations are common and to me staggering. During my most recent trip to the range I watched a guy have a failure to fire who then pointed the weapon sideways (down the line) and with a dumbfounded look on his face proceed to pull the trigger several times.

I warned my shooting buddy, packed my things and left.

I think this is a key point. In public, handling a loaded gun would cause quite a scene, and just doesn't usually happen. The chances of an 'oops' are much much lower when the consequences for the gun leaving the hoslter are much higher.

-rvb

Agreed.

 

[Delmar]

I don't recall suggesting otherwise...

That's cool.

 

[Vic_Mackey]

a range or event is the ONLY time that I feel is necessary to have an unloaded, holstered firearm. i have seen so many morons that wanna talk shop and show off their new "toys" when they have loaded guns, i almost wanna stay indoors before i get hit by an ND. look at the way the handle the 1500, seems safe enough, but i have checked out pistols and rifles that have actually had rounds in the pipe. wtf?

 

[Jack Ryan]

The reason that no loaded guns are allowed to be carried at these events is safety, plain and simple. Shooters of differing backgrounds and experience with firearms attend these events. Some of these "newbies" may not even carry for self defense, and might have had very little experience with firearms prior to the event. Sometimes kids shoot as well (especially at Steel Challenge events).

There are similar rules in virtually all the shooting sports... IDPA, Steel Challenge, NRA bullseye, USPSA.

NMLRA events as well

 

[Jack Ryan]

a range or event is the ONLY time that I feel is necessary to have an unloaded, holstered firearm. i have seen so many morons that wanna talk shop and show off their new "toys" when they have loaded guns, i almost wanna stay indoors before i get hit by an ND. look at the way the handle the 1500, seems safe enough, but i have checked out pistols and rifles that have actually had rounds in the pipe. wtf?

You wouldn't want to pay the price for a gun to find out you only bought a brick would ya?

 

[Gabrielvox1]

I still think it's a their place their rules sort of deal. It's not that different than walking into any gunstore that has the "No loaded firearms" outside. Now how often they enforce that rule....

 

[libertybear]

I have never been to an "event" at the range I shoot at but I am pretty sure a holstered handgun is exempt from the "unloaded rule" and is considered safe. All the long guns are supposed to be unloaded and cased until you get to the line and it goes hot. I kinda like it that way.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I still think it's a their place their rules sort of deal. It's not that different than walking into any gunstore that has the "No loaded firearms" outside. Now how often they enforce that rule....

There is a range in Lafayette. The former owners had, but did not uniformly enforce, a "No loaded firearms" rule. The new owners, in the lead-up to their grand opening, made their range rules available for public comment, and comment INGO members did! It primarily centered on the "safety" rule that only on-duty LEOs and their personnel were permitted to carry a loaded firearm inside the building, away from the firing line, even holstered. Logic, good sense, and an open-minded and more importantly, freedom-minded couple of guys owning the place prevailed and the rule, by time they opened, was, "No unholstered/uncased firearms away from the line."

Sure, there are nimrods out there who are dangerous with a firearm, but *I* am not, so why should I be penalized by being prevented from carrying?

Another example is Appleseed, and da*n it, it sticks in my craw every time I have to tell a shooter when they exit their car to leave any handguns they may have on them there. The facts are, though, that this is a rule of the organization, the shooters will be down on the ground, wiggling into a good prone position, and while down, their holstered pistol is pointing back behind them.... which is where the instructors (us) are walking around, checking positions, etc., and where any bystanders are. Since we never point a firearm at anything we don't want to punch holes in, and since (hopefully!) no one wants to put holes in the instructors, that's the rule. It also may be an insurance thing, but I don't know that for a fact.

And as I said, it still bothers the hell out of me to enforce it, but as an instructor, if I'm going to be down on the ground with the shooters to help teach this or that concept, my pistol (and probably my holster) come off my belt before I do, and if I forget, I'm embarrassed, but I thank the person who told me.

If there is no prone shooting, I see no reason to disarm anyone.



Blessings,
Bill

 

[SMiller]

I think and have always thought that a weapon should be allowed everywhere with the simple rule of it is to never be unholstered. Simple law that could be held everywhere.

 

[AndersonIN]

Only problem I see is that when you try to "IDIOT PROOF" something..................THEY WILL ALWAYS BUILD A BETTER IDIOT!"

 

[USMC_0311]

Another example is Appleseed, and da*n it, it sticks in my craw every time I have to tell a shooter when they exit their car to leave any handguns they may have on them there. The facts are, though, that this is a rule of the organization, the shooters will be down on the ground, wiggling into a good prone position, and while down, their holstered pistol is pointing back behind them.... which is where the instructors (us) are walking around, checking positions, etc., and where any bystanders are. Since we never point a firearm at anything we don't want to punch holes in, and since (hopefully!) no one wants to put holes in the instructors, that's the rule. It also may be an insurance thing, but I don't know that for a fact.

And as I said, it still bothers the hell out of me to enforce it, but as an instructor, if I'm going to be down on the ground with the shooters to help teach this or that concept, my pistol (and probably my holster) come off my belt before I do, and if I forget, I'm embarrassed, but I thank the person who told me.

If there is no prone shooting, I see no reason to disarm anyone.



Blessings,
Bill

That’s disappointing from an organization that promotes our liberties. Just trying to get a better understanding, Appleseed instructors tell students to leave their handguns in the car. Instructors keep their handguns holstered until they have to get down in the prone to help someone? Sorry but if I was told to leave my handgun in the car I would just stay in the car myself.
How many people carry with a shoulder holster? Even if it’s concealed it is still pointing at anyone standing behind them. Bill you have been a voice of reason, logic and have been steadfast your views. I didn't think you would make such a compromise.

 

[ATM]

That’s disappointing from an organization that promotes our liberties. Just trying to get a better understanding, Appleseed instructors tell students to leave their handguns in the car. Instructors keep their handguns holstered until they have to get down in the prone to help someone? Sorry but if I was told to leave my handgun in the car I would just stay in the car myself.
How many people carry with a shoulder holster? Even if it’s concealed it is still pointing at anyone standing behind them. Bill you have been a voice of reason, logic and have been steadfast your views. I didn't think you would make such a compromise.

This is strictly a range type safety rule, not a liberty infringement.

It would add a lot of time and endless arguing to visually inspect and verify each handgun and holster type to ensure drop-proof, proper retention, covered trigger guard, etc. for the amount of movement and changing positions the course entails.

Instructors generally remove sidearms at the same time students do, before the rifles ever come to the line.

I would consider this is a very tiny compromise in the grand scheme of the program.

 

[usmcdjb]

I took a class with DTI (John Farnum) some time ago, and all his ranges are hot. Like the thought. Firearms are dangerous. Is it practical to think they are not? You're supposed to treat them like they are either way anyway.

I recently ran across some talk about USPSA, and thought it sounded interesting. Until I read the rules, especially that you had to be unloaded, except during your competition. Nope, no thanks. I'd rather set and find my own practical shooting situations and not be confined to unloading my weapon. Removes the practicality for me.

 

[riverman67]

I took a class with DTI (John Farnum) some time ago, and all his ranges are hot. Like the thought. Firearms are dangerous. Is it practical to think they are not? You're supposed to treat them like they are either way anyway.

I recently ran across some talk about USPSA, and thought it sounded interesting. Until I read the rules, especially that you had to be unloaded, except during your competition. Nope, no thanks. I'd rather set and find my own practical shooting situations and not be confined to unloading my weapon. Removes the practicality for me.

I am sorry that you feel that way because we would love to have you.
The rules are designed so that everyone goes home with the same amount of holes that they arrived with.
I have also taken defensive classes and staying hot makes sense during these classes . The instructor talks a little then the class runs a drill or two , as a group, or in ones or twos .
That scenario is a lot different from a match. An individual completes a course of fire the the other competitors score/paste targets and reset the stage for the next shooter.There are a lot of folks moving around resetting steel and moving targets . If someone were to have a brain fart and an ND at the wrong time it would be very easy to injure someone.
Come on out and shoot I think you will find that your gun handling and marksmanship are adequately tested. It's a ton of fun and there are a bunch of nice and helpful people that compete.

 

[USMC_0311]

This is strictly a range type safety rule, not a liberty infringement.
Debateable but I respect your choice.

It would add a lot of time and endless arguing to visually inspect and verify each handgun and holster type to ensure drop-proof, proper retention, covered trigger guard, etc. for the amount of movement and changing positions the course entails.
Personal responsibility.
Why does anyone need to be told to leave the handgun in the car when they arrive at the event. Shouldn't this all ready be covered in the annoucement or registration? Same could be said for the instructions on the proper holster to use.

Instructors generally remove sidearms at the same time students do, before the rifles ever come to the line.

I would consider this is a very tiny compromise in the grand scheme of the program.

I understand the safety issues involved and I think that is my personal responsibility. If someone is unsafe ban them immediately set the standard high right off the bat. You expect morons to show up then that’s what you will get. I know you and BoR are strong supporters of individual liberties. That is why I find this disappointing, a tiny compromise? You guys never compromise

I have made a personal commitment not to go unarmed anywhere. If its illeagal then I will not be there. If its against the rules I probably() will not be there. I may have to bend a rule and I may miss out on lot of things (plane rides, sporting events, obama rallies and now appleseed events but I am willing to sacrafice those luxuries for my personal safety.