OC Black Friday Meet and Lunch 11/26/10 Discussion Thread

[Joe Williams]

So if you don't bring an ID.. and the officer just wants to be sure you aren't a felon.. how is he supposed to do his job?

You are obviously leaving him no choice but to detain you until he finds this out... is that being a law abiding citizen.. especially since it's the law that you should carry an ID at all times?

He has no legal reason to detain me in the first place. If he wants to do his job, unless he has legal cause to believe I'm committing a crime, he will leave me absolutely alone. If he chooses to illegally detain me simply because I'm carrying a long gun, I'll pursue criminal and civil complaints against him and his department.

There is no law requiring us to carry ID at all times. If there were, I'd ignore it more than just one day. Carrying "papers" is not part of being a free citizen.

 

[MACHINEGUN]

Let me rephrase that.. if you are going to drive you need an ID on you at all times.

My only concern is if they ask you to provide an ID and you don't have it.. then what?

I just think that's asking for trouble!

 

[Joe Williams]

While it is the law that we carry ID at all times, a leo must still have a reason to make you provide it.

What law?

 

[Caleb]

Joe and others could get someone to drive them there. Passengers aren't required to have ID, either.

true, true...

 

[Que]

I'm curious. On your way to this event, your pulled over cause your speeding. You have no ID, and you have your rifle of course. Are you in any trouble because the cop can't ID you?

Yes, you are in trouble for driving without a license, but not for having the rifle. I think they would probably have ID while driving, but leave it in the car or refuse to produce it, if asked during the walk.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Here is a post from a legal forum that I just ran across, take from it what you will, research as you like. I don't have time to research things I already know.

there is a law know as the stop and frisk law under TERRY.The law actually evolves from the old english vagrancy laws as far back as 15 Geo 2, ch5, 2, (1744), it is further extended to our laws in the old west as if you cannot be Identified you could be shot. Today we have incorporated it into the Uniform Arrest Act 28 va L rev 315, 344 (1942), The Model Penal Code 250.6 and most recently under Hiibel v Sixth Judicial District, Court of Nev 542 US 177 (2004) which upheld the officer right to ask for identification and if none was garnered, you would and could legally be arrested until it ascertain whom you are, or who you say you may be.
so i would say yes.

 

[Joe Williams]

Let me rephrase that.. if you are going to drive you need an ID on you at all times.

My only concern is if they ask you to provide an ID and you don't have it.. then what?

I just think that's asking for trouble!

"Give me some ID"

"Am I being detained"

If yes" "I am not carrying ID, I will not answer questions without an attorney present aside from identifying myself. Why am I being detained? Am I free to go? Why am I being detained? Am I free to go? Why am I being detained? Am I free to go?...."

If no "Then I'm leaving, ya'll have a nice day."

 

[OneBadV8]

If they detain you for not having ID, there must be a TON of homeless people in jail.

 

[VUPDblue]

Who told Ed Coleman our intent was to force arrests?

I don't know. I don't remember him saying that on the news. That sounds to me like something he may have thrown in there on his own.

 

[Freelancer]

So we are just supposed to do whatever a cop says to do even if we are doing nothing illegal?

If that cop has yet to determine if you are crazy, and you are standing next to women and children with a machine gun, absolutely.

 

[IndyMonkey]

If that cop has yet to determine if you are crazy, and you are standing next to women and children with a machine gun, absolutely.

I didnt know that police officers were licensed psychologist.

 

[dom1104]

You know.. all this "But but, what if....." is getting a little tiresome.

Cant we all just make fun of how miserable IM and ATF and SJ and Joe are going to be, trudging around in the gale strength winds, and the driving rain?

While we all sit at home like a bunch of pussbags, buying stuff on Amazon and eating Cheetos like REAL Americans?

 

[Freelancer]

Dont confuse your opinion with my rights.

THe problem with your logic is that you will give up the right to carry a MP5(which is a handgun in Indiana) for your right to carry your Hipoint.

You cant have it both ways.

I disagree. Your pistol has a valid purpose in the context of wandering around downtown, IE, enough force to reasonably defend yourself. You do not need a rifle or machine gun to accomplish this, and have the additional negative effect of alarming the public. By your logic, it should be ok to drive my Abrams tank downtown instead of my Honda. If they take my tank, next they will want my rocket launchers! Oh no! Then I can't have my grenades! When will it stop!!

Fact is, we need some reasonable guidelines. I think your little walk will do much to make the "common folk" decide that laws regarding long guns, and maybe even open carry, need to be revisited. For every person you "educate", 20 will think, "that should be illegal".

 

[Roadie]

If that cop has yet to determine if you are crazy, and you are standing next to women and children with a machine gun, absolutely.

Are you a gun owner??

I cannot fathom how ANY gun owner would make a statement like that.

However, I have seen no mention of any "machine guns" being carried, did I miss something?

Ohhh noooes, he is standing next to the wimmins and chilrens with a machinez gunz!

Really?? You do realize the next step to this kind of thinking is...
Oh no, he is standing next to women and children with a rifle!

Then:
Oh no, he is standing next to women and children with a handgun!

Then:
Phew! He is standing next to women and children unarmed, now we banned all guns, so we are safe! Right?? .....right?

 

[Freelancer]

Especially if the commands from the LEO are violating our rights?

I would rather you suffer a bit of inconvenience and all ends well at the end of the day, then the cop pass you by and you end up being some kook who just lost his wife or job and decides to mow down the food court. The public has the right to be safe, and your right to scare people does not trump that.

 

[Caleb]

Dr phil has a saying that if you don't have anything to hide, why hide anything? Joe, I got a gut feeling you will be arrested for insubordination and make the rest of us gun owners look like jackwagons. If they want to check id and make sure everything is legal to the extent of the law, that's legal and you refusing to cooperate will become insubordination. Now if they check your ID but they proceed to detaining you and disarming you, that is illegal and should be addressed.

 

[dom1104]

I disagree. Your pistol has a valid purpose in the context of wandering around downtown, IE, enough force to reasonably defend yourself. You do not need a rifle or machine gun to accomplish this, and have the additional negative effect of alarming the public. By your logic, it should be ok to drive my Abrams tank downtown instead of my Honda. If they take my tank, next they will want my rocket launchers! Oh no! Then I can't have my grenades! When will it stop!!

Fact is, we need some reasonable guidelines. I think your little walk will do much to make the "common folk" decide that laws regarding long guns, and maybe even open carry, need to be revisited. For every person you "educate", 20 will think, "that should be illegal".

DUDE! GET INTO THE FLAME PROOF SUIT! NOW!

 

[Freelancer]

Are you a gun owner??

I cannot fathom how ANY gun owner would make a statement like that.

However, I have seen no mention of any "machine guns" being carried, did I miss something?



Really?? You do realize the next step to this kind of thinking is...
Oh no, he is standing next to women and children with a rifle!

Then:
Oh no, he is standing next to women and children with a handgun!

Then:
Phew! He is standing next to women and children unarmed, now we banned all guns, so we are safe! Right?? .....right?

The "slippery slope" argument is so tired. Honestly, you guys are gun control's wet dream. The people that act this way are the ones that scare the public and turn opinion against us. Actually, if the Brady people were smart, they would do exactly that....plant some mall ninjas in our midst doing the stuff these people do and just sit back and rake in votes. lol

 

[Freelancer]

I didnt know that police officers were licensed psychologist.

"Some times OC'ing a MP5 is not a good idea."

That's from your own sig, right? Even you know this is stupid.

 

[IndyMonkey]

I disagree. Your pistol has a valid purpose in the context of wandering around downtown, IE, enough force to reasonably defend yourself. You do not need a rifle or machine gun to accomplish this, and have the additional negative effect of alarming the public. By your logic, it should be ok to drive my Abrams tank downtown instead of my Honda. If they take my tank, next they will want my rocket launchers! Oh no! Then I can't have my grenades! When will it stop!!

Fact is, we need some reasonable guidelines. I think your little walk will do much to make the "common folk" decide that laws regarding long guns, and maybe even open carry, need to be revisited. For every person you "educate", 20 will think, "that should be illegal".

Are those the same "common folk" that enjoy the other rights?

I prefer to not drive down Meridian street and see a bunch of Gays prancing around Military park every year but I dont back laws to ban it.