Obamacare: Say goodnight, Gracie...

[GodFearinGunTotin]

This may seem like a newsflash, but Trump's own election revealed a deeply divided Republican party. That fissure extends to Congress and was openly displayed through this dumpster fire. (Pardon the mixed metaphor.)

Really, there isn't a Republican party anymore. All that's left is a fight for the name.

That's because, for most of them, their rhetoric is hallow. They know what to say to get elected but they really don't believe in what they're preaching (way too many of them, anyway). If they did, they'd be going to the mat swinging like the democrats do. Instead they pick the bones when the public is sick of crap the democrats get us into and hold on to power until their voters get tired of getting nothing and stay home.

 

[Tombs]

I think this is all part of the plan, ultimately. Trump has made clear multiple times even during the debates that he's well left of center regarding healthcare, he's also made clear that we need obamacare to implode so the democrats will work with him.

My gut tells me this is a set up for an expansion of medicare. I firmly believe obamacare will eventually reach a point of costing more than a national health service.

 

[Libertarian01]

The only thing I can say about that, Doug, is that money is fungible. You can't make someone spend money out of their wallet and that not impact their piggy bank. Ultimately it will move the same way, no matter what restrictions you pretend are on it.

So I would say #1) No government requirement to treat. #2) Those that choose to treat anyway will be forced to raise their prices, and they would have to justify that expense to their customers or lose them.

You hit the nail on the head. I want the spent money to impact THEIR wallet, not their other customers!

Simplifying this hugely, all that needs to happen is to legislate how the GAAP will allow them to account for services they provide that they are no longer legally obligated to. Thus, they are "volunteering" their services and that expense should not be passed on to their other customers. We do this all the time with other people and companies. While you are completely correct that they may raise their prices, at least they will be forced to look at what they are spending at the time AND account for it publicly.

What you do is pass legislation that says how something is legal, then anything that doesn't conform is by default illegal. This is like the difference between an HO-2 and HO-3 homeowners insurance policy. The HO-2 tells you everything that is covered. The HO-3 gives you a list of everything that is not covered. On the HO-3 if it isn't on the list (like an act of war) then it is covered.

Doug, that's a lot of forcing by government in there for a INGOer with the word libertarian in their user name.

It's been a long time and I'm strictly going off memory here but in most locations, didn't all of them that had hospitals, didn't they have at least one that would take anyone that made it in the doors? And wasn't the issue that a few of them would only stabilize the worst cases and then transfer them to the other hospital that would take them?

It is actually less government, in my opinion, but I hear what you are saying. The Constitution allows for government interference in trade. See the Interstate Commerce Clause. (I am not saying I like it, only that I acknowledge it.)

What I promote versus what I want to see in a Utopian world are often two (2) different things. While I want to see the .gov removed as much as possible I know it will always be there - somewhere. To what extent and how deeply is up to us to push for. Since the Code of Hammurabi governments have regulated commerce.

You want to put a sunset clause on any of my ideas that will never pass? Great! I'll support that.

There were hospitals that wouldn't take Catholics. There were hospitals that wouldn't take blacks. There were all sorts of discrimination in the early days. I do not want to go back to that kind of discrimination. I do want to see the free market forced down their throats, and the only way I believe that can happen now is to have the .gov shove it there. Regrettably, no one else has that much power today.

You remind me that there could be room for hospitals to cut costs massively and serve the people who don't have coverage. They could go back to the days when a single senior doctor supervised an "indigent" wing of interns. The interns learned under experienced guidance and the hospital didn't pay for multiple senior staff. Heck, I've even heard that the senior doc was often a volunteer, unpaid.

They have the majority and STILL can't get crap done...hahaha

Yep. Ain't politics grand?

--------------------------

I honestly believe that both liberals and conservatives and moderates want the same thing - the best healthcare for the most people at the lowest price under a set of priorities. The problem is our priorities are different and we fight instead of trying to listening to some good ideas from each side and failing to throw out the bad ideas from "our" own side. As usual we disagree on how to get there.

If we must keep the ACA then we must enforce it 100%. I do agree with that. We must allow this monster to cause the destruction it was designed to do otherwise we will never be rid of it. It is a nightmare that hasn't yet fully manifested as it has had provisions kicked down the road, and my guess is that our glorious leaders will keep kicking them farther and farther down. That must end. I believe we must feel the pain to start to understand the cause of the pain, and thus course correct. I also believe that won't happen for a long, long time (if ever.)

Regards,

Doug

 

[Leadeye]

Obamacare, collapse? Lots of people keep making this assertion, without backing it up with any specifics of how it will happen. What are you basing this on?
We have to face some facts:

1) Obamacare legally compels citizens to purchase insurance. This creates a revenue stream for insurance companies - enforced by the guns of the IRS - which Insurers will fight to the death to defend.

2) The above arrangement was tested & approved by the highest court there is. >> No need for stockholders to worry about their future revenue stream being struck down in court.

3) If people cannot afford the premium increases assured by 1) & 2) above, the Law limits what they have to pay themselves, and obligates the rest of us to cover the difference for them through subsidies. The "customers" are insulated from the true cost of their premiums, and so have no real incentive to drop out of the exchanges (in fact, they will be fined if they do).

We have a Law that combines both Individual and Corporate Welfare into the same devious package, backed up by the full faith & credit of the U.S. Government's ability to print money, and the profits from this elaborate and ingenious theft-scheme will flow into corporations who will fight to the death to preserve their corporate welfare. And, the whole thing is already approved by the highest court in the land.

I really want somebody to explain to me how does this ever "collapse" or go away? Please show your work.




You are beginning to understand, grasshopper....

Always follow the money.

 

[AtTheMurph]

There were hospitals that wouldn't take Catholics. There were hospitals that wouldn't take blacks. There were all sorts of discrimination in the early days. I do not want to go back to that kind of discrimination. I do want to see the free market forced down their throats, and the only way I believe that can happen now is to have the .gov shove it there. Regrettably, no one else has that much power today.

This was before the time of government overreach into our lives and markets. So the free market took care of these inequities. The Catholics started their own hospitals and schools (in some places Catholics were barred from attending public schools so they started their own schools).

No one should be forced to conduct business with anyone they choose not to even if we find the reasons abhorrent. Liberty requires it.

 

[jamil]

I think this is all part of the plan, ultimately. Trump has made clear multiple times even during the debates that he's well left of center regarding healthcare, he's also made clear that we need obamacare to implode so the democrats will work with him.

My gut tells me this is a set up for an expansion of medicare. I firmly believe obamacare will eventually reach a point of costing more than a national health service.

Obamacare is not going to collapse. It's foolish to adopt a political strategy around that belief. But you are right about the costs continuing to go up. The cost tracking subsidies make a sort of positive feedback loop. when premium costs increase, there's an automatic increase in subsidies, making the one free-market principle left, consumer's outrage, less impacting on price. With no real pressure to keep costs down, they'll keep rising. And the pain of that will be hidden by the subsidies.

 

[Woobie]

Pardon me for not being excited about nihilistic sentiments encouraging personal and national fiscal jeopardy to further the destruction of a political party that tends to support gun rights.

I simply do not share your optimism that things need to get worse before they can get better. There is near certainty that things can get worse. There is no certainty that "better" will follow. In fact, it is more likely that it will only get worse. Raiding of Social Security comes to mind as an example. And racking up more debt.

I'm not saying it will get better in the immediate aftermath. But not putting this bill into law leaves open the option for a future repeal. If they had passed it, the ball moves down the field and never comes back. It is the incrementalism you described, but in reverse. We are victims of our own stupidity, and not the attacks of liberals, if we pass a bill like that currently proposed.

 

[Woobie]

Obamacare, collapse? Lots of people keep making this assertion, without backing it up with any specifics of how it will happen. What are you basing this on?
We have to face some facts:

1) Obamacare legally compels citizens to purchase insurance. This creates a revenue stream for insurance companies - enforced by the guns of the IRS - which Insurers will fight to the death to defend.

2) The above arrangement was tested & approved by the highest court there is. >> No need for stockholders to worry about their future revenue stream being struck down in court.

3) If people cannot afford the premium increases assured by 1) & 2) above, the Law limits what they have to pay themselves, and obligates the rest of us to cover the difference for them through subsidies. The "customers" are insulated from the true cost of their premiums, and so have no real incentive to drop out of the exchanges (in fact, they will be fined if they do).

We have a Law that combines both Individual and Corporate Welfare into the same devious package, backed up by the full faith & credit of the U.S. Government's ability to print money, and the profits from this elaborate and ingenious theft-scheme will flow into corporations who will fight to the death to preserve their corporate welfare. And, the whole thing is already approved by the highest court in the land.

I really want somebody to explain to me how does this ever "collapse" or go away? Please show your work.




You are beginning to understand, grasshopper....

You don't need me to show my work, you need a history lesson if you think Obamacare is viable in the long term.

 

[Woobie]

This may seem like a newsflash, but Trump's own election revealed a deeply divided Republican party. That fissure extends to Congress and was openly displayed through this dumpster fire. (Pardon the mixed metaphor.)

Really, there isn't a Republican party anymore. All that's left is a fight for the name.

Exactly. The Republican Party as we have known it is weaker than ever. We can not allow an establishment victory on this. Ryan and his owners must be sent to the corner to sulk, and Trump must be reminded who elected him. Out with the old, in with the new.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

What a timely tweet. 5m ago.

ObamaCare will explode and we will all get together and piece together a great healthcare plan for THE PEOPLE. Do not worry!

https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/845649960855113728

So that's one campaign promise that might be delayed. Or forgotten.

 

[T.Lex]

I'm not saying it will get better in the immediate aftermath. But not putting this bill into law leaves open the option for a future repeal. If they had passed it, the ball moves down the field and never comes back. It is the incrementalism you described, but in reverse. We are victims of our own stupidity, and not the attacks of liberals, if we pass a bill like that currently proposed.

If it cannot get done now, in the honeymoon of a new president, with a majority in congress, it will not happen.

It is yet early, but this cluster foxtrot - and a failure of tax reform - will cause the party-in-name-only Republicans to lose seats at the midterm.

Exactly. The Republican Party as we have known it is weaker than ever. We can not allow an establishment victory on this. Ryan and his owners must be sent to the corner to sulk, and Trump must be reminded who elected him. Out with the old, in with the new.

This idea of damn-the-establishment and their compromise is the problem.

Tell me, if Trump was the champion of anti-establishment when elected, but endorsed this, does that make the Freedom Caucus - a minority in every political metric that counts - the new champion? This is a recipe for policy failure.

 

[Woobie]

If it cannot get done now, in the honeymoon of a new president, with a majority in congress, it will not happen.

It is yet early, but this cluster foxtrot - and a failure of tax reform - will cause the party-in-name-only Republicans to lose seats at the midterm.



This idea of damn-the-establishment and their compromise is the problem.

Tell me, if Trump was the champion of anti-establishment when elected, but endorsed this, does that make the Freedom Caucus - a minority in every political metric that counts - the new champion? This is a recipe for policy failure.

Dude, that first line is straight out of Ryan's mouth. Sounds like the marketing is actually working on some folks.


Trump marketed himself well, and the anti-establishment voters bought it. The Freedom Caucus is small because most of the Party won't bite the hand that feeds their campaign coffers. But it's growing, and I'm patient. I'm not in a hurry to help the Republicans screw America.

The establishment Republicans voted for Obamacare. They gave us the Patriot Act. They gave us NSA surveillance. They gave us lots of things. So yeah, I don't like them. Dont mistake the little bones they throw you as a sign they like you. You're still a dog to them.

But you go ahead and knock yourself out. Freedom is cheap to those who don't pay for it.

 

[bwframe]

Obamacare will collapse. There will soon be NO insurance companies that will be participating.

https://www.usnews.com/news/article...from-obamacare-leaves-little-insurance-choice

 

[Woobie]

Obamacare will collapse. There will soon be NO insurance companies that will be participating.

https://www.usnews.com/news/article...from-obamacare-leaves-little-insurance-choice

Not true. I recently read on INGO that it is perfectly viable.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Report: Bannon told conservatives 'this is not a debate,' you have to back bill | TheHill

Good strategy, Bannon.

"Guys, look. This is not a discussion. This is not a debate. You have no choice but to vote for this bill,” Bannon reportedly said.

A Freedom Caucus member reportedly replied: “You know, the last time someone ordered me to something, I was 18 years old. And it was my daddy. And I didn't listen to him, either."

 

[bwframe]

Not true. I recently read on INGO that it is perfectly viable.

I'm not much for cloaking all of INGO with the words of a prolific/loud few members. Quite a few members have adopted this habit which I feel belittles us all.

 

[longbarrel]

How did it go? Haven't been on here in a while.

 

[Woobie]

I'm not much for cloaking all of INGO with the words of a prolific/loud few members. Quite a few members have adopted this habit which I feel belittles us all.

I just said I read it here

 

[bwframe]

I just said I read it here

I'm really not trying to point fingers at anyone. Just noting a trend that some have taken towards blanket statements that belittle INGOers overall.

I've been guilty myself in the past. When a local ND gets reported in the news, I've rushed to be first to get out the witty , "what's their INGO username." I'm trying to do better.

 

[actaeon277]

I'm really not trying to point fingers at anyone. Just noting a trend that some have taken towards blanket statements that belittle INGOers overall.

I've been guilty myself in the past. When a local ND gets reported in the news, I've rushed to be first to get out the witty , "what's their INGO username." I'm trying to do better.

Yup