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New BATF ruling on stabilizing braces today

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    JAL

    JAL

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    May 14, 2017
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    There are more nuances to this than just tossing a brace on.
    1. The lower cannot have started its life as a rifle when originally bought or built. Once a rifle. Always a rifle. Forever.
    2. The lower must start its life as a pistol, or as an "Other" (e.g. a stripped lower that is neither).
    3. If it's originally a stripped lower "Other" it must first be built as a "Pistol". If first built as a "Rifle" it's a rifle. Forever.
    4. What the firearm is depends on what it was when it was sold NEW, on the original FFL 4473, not what it is if you buy one used. This is a nightmare for those buying used AR-15/AK-47. You have to know its complete provenance.
    Examples:
    1. If you bought a new AR-15 Rifle with 16" or longer barrel and stock on it, you can't take upper and stock off of the lower and make it into a pistol (with or without a brace) with an upper barrel less than 16". It's now an SBR requiring a Tax Stamp. It can never be a pistol.
    2. If you bought a new AR-15 Pistol with barrel less than 16", it will always be a Pistol, or an "Other" if someone puts a barrel longer than 16" on it. It can be reverted back to Pistol configuration at any time. That's because it started life as a Pistol. It will never be a Rifle, only a Pistol or Other. However, it can NEVER have a barrel under 16" and a rifle stock simultaneously. Such a combination creates an NFA regulated SBR.
    3. If you bought a new AR-15 stripped lower or a lower without an upper or a stock on it, it's an "Other" on the original 4473. If such a lower originally sold as "Other" is first built into a pistol (with or without a brace, but not a stock) with barrel under 16" it's a Pistol or an "Other" for life. Even if a 16" or longer barrel is put onto it, it's never a Rifle. However, it can NEVER (not even for a second) have a barrel under 16" and a rifle stock on it simultaneously. Such a combination creates an NFA regulated SBR.
    4. Those buying stripped or bare lowers without an upper or stock should always build it into a Pistol configuration first and document the sh*t out of it to back up a claim that it's a Pistol (or Other), and not a Rifle.
    5. If you bought a USED AR-15 in a rifle or pistol configuration, you MUST know its provenance; what it was when originally sold to its first owner new from an FFL. Have that documented! Copy of original Bill of Sale when new stating what it is should suffice. That original 4473 is what the FBI and ATF will use if they find you with it and want to pursue SBR prosecution.
    6. For those DIY making their own lowers (e.g. 80% lowers), one should ALWAYS build it first into a Pistol, and document the sh*t out of that, just as if it were a stripped lower with serial number, etc. (see #4; this is the DIY version).
    There are other nuances, one of which already mentioned. A "Pistol" cannot have an overall length (OAL) exceeding 26", as officially measured by ATF (end of muzzle without removable muzzle device, if it has one, to end of buffer tube, measured parallel to barrel; pinned/welded muzzle devices are part of the barrel). There are pictures online of the right angle jig they use to do this. In addition, a Pistol configuration cannot have a forward hand grip unless it's registered with ATF as an "Any Other Weapon" (aka AOW), another NFA Go to Prison Gotcha. If reverting an "Other" with barrel over 16" back to Pistol, remove both forward hand grip and stock, BEFORE putting the shorter barrel upper on it. I cringe when I see AR Pistols with forward hand grips on them, and a bipod that can be used as one is considered a forward hand grip (nice try, but no cigar).

    I suggest those unfamiliar with these nuances read them several times to understand them. An important SCOTUS case to read to understand the nuance of having multiple uppers and lowers regarding Constructive Possession (possession of parts that can construct a prohibited firearm, whether or not assembled into one) and the Rule of Lenity:

    United States v. Thompson Center, SCOTUS 1992
    https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/504/505/

    The Thompson Center Contender Pistol was sold as a kit with barrels over and under 16" and a detachable shoulder stock. Government argued that it could be constructed into an SBR and therefore was one, whether it was built into one or not. SCOTUS Decision found Rule of Lenity prevailed over criminal statutes and Agency Rules. That it could be built into a legitimate pistol or a legal rifle was sufficient, telling ATF to go pound sand. AFAIK, Thompson Center is still making their Contender kits, and has a couple other models using the same concept.

    Finally: INAL like Gun Guy Relford or a few others here.
    I am NOT a Lawyer. Do your own research and make your own decisions. Knowledge is Power.

    Mock v. Garland is far from over in spite of today's Final Judgement in Federal District Court (Southern Texas). Thank you Saint Reed O'Connor. You MUST remain aware of its status in the courts. I guarantee ATF will appeal it to 5th Circuit requesting a stay on O'Connor's Final Judgement. Whether or not they get that stay is anyone's guess. There is another very, very lengthy thread in this forum about Mock v. Garland.
     
    Last edited:
    DadSmith

    DadSmith

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
    25,762
    113
    Ripley County
    JAL said:
    There are more nuances to this than just tossing a brace on.
    1. The lower cannot have started its life as a rifle when originally bought or built. Once a rifle. Always a rifle. Forever.
    2. The lower must start its life as a pistol, or as an "Other" (e.g. a stripped lower that is neither).
    3. If it's originally a stripped lower "Other" it must first be built as a "Pistol". If first built as a "Rifle" it's a rifle. Forever.
    4. What the firearm is depends on what it was when it was sold NEW, on the original FFL 4473, not what it is if you buy one used. This is a nightmare for those buying used AR-15/AK-47. You have to know its complete provenance.
    Examples:
    1. If you bought a new AR-15 Rifle with 16" or longer barrel and stock on it, you can't take upper and stock off of the lower and make it into a pistol (with or without a brace) with an upper barrel less than 16". It's now an SBR requiring a Tax Stamp. It can never be a pistol.
    2. If you bought a new AR-15 Pistol with barrel less than 16", it will always be a Pistol, or an "Other" if someone puts a barrel longer than 16" on it. It can be reverted back to Pistol configuration at any time. That's because it started life as a Pistol. It will never be a Rifle, only a Pistol or Other. However, it can NEVER have a barrel under 16" and a rifle stock simultaneously. Such a combination creates an NFA regulated SBR.
    3. If you bought a new AR-15 stripped lower or a lower without an upper or a stock on it, it's an "Other" on the original 4473. If such a lower originally sold as "Other" is first built into a pistol (with or without a brace, but not a stock) with barrel under 16" it's a Pistol or an "Other" for life. Even if a 16" or longer barrel is put onto it, it's never a Rifle. However, it can NEVER (not even for a second) have a barrel under 16" and a rifle stock on it simultaneously. Such a combination creates an NFA regulated SBR.
    4. Those buying stripped or bare lowers without an upper or stock should always build it into a Pistol configuration first and document the sh*t out of it to back up a claim that it's a Pistol (or Other), and not a Rifle.
    5. If you bought a USED AR-15 in a rifle or pistol configuration, you MUST know its provenance; what it was when originally sold to its first owner new from an FFL. Have that documented! Copy of original Bill of Sale when new stating what it is should suffice. That original 4473 is what the FBI and ATF will use if they find you with it and want to pursue SBR prosecution.
    6. For those DIY making their own lowers (e.g. 80% lowers), one should ALWAYS build it first into a Pistol, and document the sh*t out of that, just as if it were a stripped lower with serial number, etc. (see #4; this is the DIY version).
    There are other nuances, one of which already mentioned. A "Pistol" cannot have an overall length (OAL) exceeding 26", as officially measured by ATF (end of muzzle without removable muzzle device, if it has one, to end of buffer tube, measured parallel to barrel; pinned/welded muzzle devices are part of the barrel). There are pictures online of the right angle jig they use to do this. In addition, a Pistol configuration cannot have a forward hand grip unless it's registered with ATF as an "Any Other Weapon" (aka AOW), another NFA Go to Prison Gotcha. If reverting an "Other" with barrel over 16" back to Pistol, remove both forward hand grip and stock, BEFORE putting the shorter barrel upper on it. I cringe when I see AR Pistols with forward hand grips on them, and a bipod that can be used as one is considered a forward hand grip (nice try, but no cigar).

    I suggest those unfamiliar with these nuances read them several times to understand them. An important SCOTUS case to read to understand the nuance of having multiple uppers and lowers regarding Constructive Possession (possession of parts that can construct a prohibited firearm, whether or not assembled into one) and the Rule of Lenity:

    United States v. Thompson Center, SCOTUS 1992
    https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/504/505/

    The Thompson Center Contender Pistol was sold as a kit with barrels over and under 16" and a detachable shoulder stock. Government argued that it could be constructed into an SBR and therefore was one, whether it was built into one or not. SCOTUS Decision found Rule of Lenity prevailed over criminal statutes and Agency Rules. That it could be built into a legitimate pistol or a legal rifle was sufficient, telling ATF to go pound sand. AFAIK, Thompson Center is still making their Contender kits, and has a couple other models using the same concept.

    Finally: INAL like Gun Guy Relford or a few others here.
    I am NOT a Lawyer. Do your own research and make your own decisions. Knowledge is Power.

    Mock v. Garland is far from over in spite of today's Final Judgement in Federal District Court (Southern Texas). Thank you Saint Reed O'Connor. You MUST remain aware of its status in the courts. I guarantee ATF will appeal it to 5th Circuit requesting a stay on O'Connor's Final Judgement. Whether or not they get that stay is anyone's guess. There is another very, very lengthy thread in this forum about Mock v. Garland.
    Click to expand...
    JAL always good information. Very much appreciated brother.
     
    gassprint1

    gassprint1

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0
    Dec 15, 2015
    1,613
    113
    NWI
    Seems the rifle/pistol rule is the same as it always was...pistol to a 100% rifle but no rifle converted to pistol without nfa form.
     
    grillak

    grillak

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Jan 22, 2021
    1,956
    113
    Indianapolis
    JAL said:
    There are more nuances to this than just tossing a brace on.
    1. The lower cannot have started its life as a rifle when originally bought or built. Once a rifle. Always a rifle. Forever.
    2. The lower must start its life as a pistol, or as an "Other" (e.g. a stripped lower that is neither).
    3. If it's originally a stripped lower "Other" it must first be built as a "Pistol". If first built as a "Rifle" it's a rifle. Forever.
    4. What the firearm is depends on what it was when it was sold NEW, on the original FFL 4473, not what it is if you buy one used. This is a nightmare for those buying used AR-15/AK-47. You have to know its complete provenance.
    Examples:
    1. If you bought a new AR-15 Rifle with 16" or longer barrel and stock on it, you can't take upper and stock off of the lower and make it into a pistol (with or without a brace) with an upper barrel less than 16". It's now an SBR requiring a Tax Stamp. It can never be a pistol.
    2. If you bought a new AR-15 Pistol with barrel less than 16", it will always be a Pistol, or an "Other" if someone puts a barrel longer than 16" on it. It can be reverted back to Pistol configuration at any time. That's because it started life as a Pistol. It will never be a Rifle, only a Pistol or Other. However, it can NEVER have a barrel under 16" and a rifle stock simultaneously. Such a combination creates an NFA regulated SBR.
    3. If you bought a new AR-15 stripped lower or a lower without an upper or a stock on it, it's an "Other" on the original 4473. If such a lower originally sold as "Other" is first built into a pistol (with or without a brace, but not a stock) with barrel under 16" it's a Pistol or an "Other" for life. Even if a 16" or longer barrel is put onto it, it's never a Rifle. However, it can NEVER (not even for a second) have a barrel under 16" and a rifle stock on it simultaneously. Such a combination creates an NFA regulated SBR.
    4. Those buying stripped or bare lowers without an upper or stock should always build it into a Pistol configuration first and document the sh*t out of it to back up a claim that it's a Pistol (or Other), and not a Rifle.
    5. If you bought a USED AR-15 in a rifle or pistol configuration, you MUST know its provenance; what it was when originally sold to its first owner new from an FFL. Have that documented! Copy of original Bill of Sale when new stating what it is should suffice. That original 4473 is what the FBI and ATF will use if they find you with it and want to pursue SBR prosecution.
    6. For those DIY making their own lowers (e.g. 80% lowers), one should ALWAYS build it first into a Pistol, and document the sh*t out of that, just as if it were a stripped lower with serial number, etc. (see #4; this is the DIY version).
    There are other nuances, one of which already mentioned. A "Pistol" cannot have an overall length (OAL) exceeding 26", as officially measured by ATF (end of muzzle without removable muzzle device, if it has one, to end of buffer tube, measured parallel to barrel; pinned/welded muzzle devices are part of the barrel). There are pictures online of the right angle jig they use to do this. In addition, a Pistol configuration cannot have a forward hand grip unless it's registered with ATF as an "Any Other Weapon" (aka AOW), another NFA Go to Prison Gotcha. If reverting an "Other" with barrel over 16" back to Pistol, remove both forward hand grip and stock, BEFORE putting the shorter barrel upper on it. I cringe when I see AR Pistols with forward hand grips on them, and a bipod that can be used as one is considered a forward hand grip (nice try, but no cigar).

    I suggest those unfamiliar with these nuances read them several times to understand them. An important SCOTUS case to read to understand the nuance of having multiple uppers and lowers regarding Constructive Possession (possession of parts that can construct a prohibited firearm, whether or not assembled into one) and the Rule of Lenity:

    United States v. Thompson Center, SCOTUS 1992
    https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/504/505/

    The Thompson Center Contender Pistol was sold as a kit with barrels over and under 16" and a detachable shoulder stock. Government argued that it could be constructed into an SBR and therefore was one, whether it was built into one or not. SCOTUS Decision found Rule of Lenity prevailed over criminal statutes and Agency Rules. That it could be built into a legitimate pistol or a legal rifle was sufficient, telling ATF to go pound sand. AFAIK, Thompson Center is still making their Contender kits, and has a couple other models using the same concept.

    Finally: INAL like Gun Guy Relford or a few others here.
    I am NOT a Lawyer. Do your own research and make your own decisions. Knowledge is Power.

    Mock v. Garland is far from over in spite of today's Final Judgement in Federal District Court (Southern Texas). Thank you Saint Reed O'Connor. You MUST remain aware of its status in the courts. I guarantee ATF will appeal it to 5th Circuit requesting a stay on O'Connor's Final Judgement. Whether or not they get that stay is anyone's guess. There is another very, very lengthy thread in this forum about Mock v. Garland.
    Click to expand...
    good thing i wasn't at the library....i would've missed this.

    this should be a docuseries...

    the only thing clear about this is the fact that illegals now have more 2A rights than we do
     
    Amishman44

    Amishman44

    Master
    Rating - 98.2%
    54   1   0
    Dec 30, 2009
    3,886
    113
    Woodburn
    JAL said:
    There are more nuances to this than just tossing a brace on.
    1. The lower cannot have started its life as a rifle when originally bought or built. Once a rifle. Always a rifle. Forever.
    2. The lower must start its life as a pistol, or as an "Other" (e.g. a stripped lower that is neither).
    3. If it's originally a stripped lower "Other" it must first be built as a "Pistol". If first built as a "Rifle" it's a rifle. Forever.
    4. What the firearm is depends on what it was when it was sold NEW, on the original FFL 4473, not what it is if you buy one used. This is a nightmare for those buying used AR-15/AK-47. You have to know its complete provenance.
    Examples:
    1. If you bought a new AR-15 Rifle with 16" or longer barrel and stock on it, you can't take upper and stock off of the lower and make it into a pistol (with or without a brace) with an upper barrel less than 16". It's now an SBR requiring a Tax Stamp. It can never be a pistol.
    2. If you bought a new AR-15 Pistol with barrel less than 16", it will always be a Pistol, or an "Other" if someone puts a barrel longer than 16" on it. It can be reverted back to Pistol configuration at any time. That's because it started life as a Pistol. It will never be a Rifle, only a Pistol or Other. However, it can NEVER have a barrel under 16" and a rifle stock simultaneously. Such a combination creates an NFA regulated SBR.
    3. If you bought a new AR-15 stripped lower or a lower without an upper or a stock on it, it's an "Other" on the original 4473. If such a lower originally sold as "Other" is first built into a pistol (with or without a brace, but not a stock) with barrel under 16" it's a Pistol or an "Other" for life. Even if a 16" or longer barrel is put onto it, it's never a Rifle. However, it can NEVER (not even for a second) have a barrel under 16" and a rifle stock on it simultaneously. Such a combination creates an NFA regulated SBR.
    4. Those buying stripped or bare lowers without an upper or stock should always build it into a Pistol configuration first and document the sh*t out of it to back up a claim that it's a Pistol (or Other), and not a Rifle.
    5. If you bought a USED AR-15 in a rifle or pistol configuration, you MUST know its provenance; what it was when originally sold to its first owner new from an FFL. Have that documented! Copy of original Bill of Sale when new stating what it is should suffice. That original 4473 is what the FBI and ATF will use if they find you with it and want to pursue SBR prosecution.
    6. For those DIY making their own lowers (e.g. 80% lowers), one should ALWAYS build it first into a Pistol, and document the sh*t out of that, just as if it were a stripped lower with serial number, etc. (see #4; this is the DIY version).
    There are other nuances, one of which already mentioned. A "Pistol" cannot have an overall length (OAL) exceeding 26", as officially measured by ATF (end of muzzle without removable muzzle device, if it has one, to end of buffer tube, measured parallel to barrel; pinned/welded muzzle devices are part of the barrel). There are pictures online of the right angle jig they use to do this. In addition, a Pistol configuration cannot have a forward hand grip unless it's registered with ATF as an "Any Other Weapon" (aka AOW), another NFA Go to Prison Gotcha. If reverting an "Other" with barrel over 16" back to Pistol, remove both forward hand grip and stock, BEFORE putting the shorter barrel upper on it. I cringe when I see AR Pistols with forward hand grips on them, and a bipod that can be used as one is considered a forward hand grip (nice try, but no cigar).

    I suggest those unfamiliar with these nuances read them several times to understand them. An important SCOTUS case to read to understand the nuance of having multiple uppers and lowers regarding Constructive Possession (possession of parts that can construct a prohibited firearm, whether or not assembled into one) and the Rule of Lenity:

    United States v. Thompson Center, SCOTUS 1992
    https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/504/505/

    The Thompson Center Contender Pistol was sold as a kit with barrels over and under 16" and a detachable shoulder stock. Government argued that it could be constructed into an SBR and therefore was one, whether it was built into one or not. SCOTUS Decision found Rule of Lenity prevailed over criminal statutes and Agency Rules. That it could be built into a legitimate pistol or a legal rifle was sufficient, telling ATF to go pound sand. AFAIK, Thompson Center is still making their Contender kits, and has a couple other models using the same concept.

    Finally: INAL like Gun Guy Relford or a few others here.
    I am NOT a Lawyer. Do your own research and make your own decisions. Knowledge is Power.

    Mock v. Garland is far from over in spite of today's Final Judgement in Federal District Court (Southern Texas). Thank you Saint Reed O'Connor. You MUST remain aware of its status in the courts. I guarantee ATF will appeal it to 5th Circuit requesting a stay on O'Connor's Final Judgement. Whether or not they get that stay is anyone's guess. There is another very, very lengthy thread in this forum about Mock v. Garland.
    Click to expand...
    The wording on this is actually quite clear, when it comes to the difference between a rifle or pistol, and the life-long configuration status it maintains!
     
    BigRed

    BigRed

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